What is Jeff's equalizer?

Okay, i'm still trying to figure out how i've been winning consistently with Jeff. (As an aside, i decided not to bring back the "weak-ass joke" thread, much to the relief, no doubt, of many forumers)

On paper, this guy just shouldn't be winning. Throw game isn't the greatest, terribly slow, and has no tools to deal with and outside of traditional defense. Frankly i shouldn't have to be crouch dashing backwards with big ass Jeff. I should be walking through people. Well... i guess it's not all bad news. He still does more damage per strike (not throw) on average than anyone else except Akira...

In addition to this, i've noticed that i've been able to land fairly often (someone in the joke thread mentioned this also), which, although slow, has like no recovery and is one of the most damaging single strikes in the game - i think only Akira's dbplm and his do more at close range.



Anyway, is this Jeff's equalizer because of its range and recovery? He has to have one, and it sure as heck isn't TKoD. That thing is so easy to struggle out of on anything but MC, it's all but useless.

BTW, what in the world do you ever use for? Is that meant for after the round or something?

 

Jeff is by no means weak. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone say, "he's not strong enough". In fact, he was always considered stronger than Wolf from VFvA-C. Opinions vary now in Evo.

His strong points:
Distance
Power per hit
His knee -- All you haev to do is dodge something that has about -6 recovery, knee, and do the follow ups for guaranteed damage.

It's not rare to see Jeffry take off half the bar w/ one combo.

 

[ QUOTE ]
I cringe when it hits the same way I do when Akira lands a yoho.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup. There's this odd "heavy character big move gut wrench" that happens to me essentially 1)anytime I get hit with SPoD or ST>sgpm>dbpm 2)anytime Wolf get's his hands on me 3)right when Jeff has me over his head during splash mountain (+). Moves that take a loooong time to happen & are accompanied by an orgasmic moan by your opponent are pretty demoralizing (I shoulda been outa that!) & it isn't good for the whole psyche to feel helpless while fighting. Jeff's an ace in this department.

 

To play devil's advocate, nearly every character has a power move of some kind that functions like Jeffry's knee: Akira's Yoho or knee, Wolf's short shoulder, Jacky and Sarah's , Lau's + or , Brad's , and to a lesser degree, Kage's , Pai and Lion's , Aoi's +, Shun's chouwan, etc.

I'm not arguing that Jeffry's knee ain't strong, but it's a power move that's not really all that special to the big guy either.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Myke said:
For anti , the is more than your friend. It's special high, which means a low attack can't beat it. Then it's just Crumble'n Combo.

[/ QUOTE ]

WoW. I've looked at the movelist so many times and I've never noticed that. You've just made my day. Time to destroy + whores /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

 

I'd have to say Jeffry's + flop is one of my favorite new moves. It's uncounterable, quick, hits mid, and you get a free pounce or . It's great when it's used as a delayed attack to punish ETEG (this move is also amazingly effective if you backdash first). Jeffry's capable of making the opponent "freeze" almost as much as Akira can, because his nikatu game is so much stronger now (he still has the high kick cancel /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif). IMO, the new + in addition to + makes Jeffry's poking game much better than Wolf's. If you're backdashing/delaying with these moves, faking with the high kick cancel and occasionally gambling with the knee, you can practically get away with murder. Jeffry is not a "weak-ass-joke". /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'm also compelled to mention that ++ and ++ are absolute gold.

 

df+k+g while a great move isnt quick its 22 frames. The best thing about this move is that its in hit phase for 4 frames. Its also nice that you get the df+k+g->d+p->ff+p,p combo on any type of hit.

 

Thanks for the responses!

Maybe i'm doing something wrong, but i get interrupted by fairly frequently when performing . Or at least it seems that way. I thought only eats low attacks? I'm probably just getting hit when i even think about doing the move. /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Anyway, my buddy tells me that dodge-knee is pretty devastating, like what GaijinPunch is saying. When input quickly, if the dodge is successful, the knee comes out and usually hits (is it -6 recovery for your opponent, really?). When unsuccessful, the dodge fails, so you get the step but the knee doesn't come out. He says this works if you input it the same way you would dodge-TE.

Will be trying this some.

Also curious, with respect to the knee, about recovery times for whiffed attacks. Same as for guard or no?

Oh yeah, and i'm glad someone mentioned ,. The second is guaranteed after the first hits, i think, and it's always nice to get into threat stance quickly and in close. No real problem, then, if blocked. Having the first punch ducked, though, can lead to problems if your opponent can counter quickly with .

 

I never knew + was that slow. /versus/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Anyway, I agree that this move is crucial for Jeffry. I guess it just seems quicker to me because it's so good at mid-range.


[ QUOTE ]
Aeon said:
Also curious, with respect to the knee, about recovery times for whiffed attacks. Same as for guard or no?

[/ QUOTE ]
Since there's no blockstun on you when their move whiffs, you can react faster than you normally could.

 

True, they've all got their moves, but Jeff's, I think, is quite unmatched. A close 2nd is Brad's knee, and to a slightly lesser extent Sarah's .

The only thing it doesn't float very high on is a duck. For all intents and purposes, it floats about the same on a MC as it does, say, when dodging something w/ -8 recovery - and it and the follow-ups are guaranteed, unlike I a throw.
,
Shun (Chowan), Aoi +, Lion , and Pai 's all require an MC. To boot, the Chowan does nothing but lift the opponent up on duck - no damage.

I think in Lion's situation, + is much more suitable after dodging something w/ high recovery. Not as much potential damage, but guarantees at least something. The rest of the aforementioned is a crap shoot, so depends on the player. Pai's got an advantage in her is only reversed by Aoi, and isn't inashed by anyone.

Of the ones I mentioned, I think Aoi has it the worst. + only requires a hit to crumble, is painfully slow, but not throw counterable on the other hand. Not good to use on a standard stagger, as most can get out of it. A wall stagger is a different story, but you'd use + in that situation anyway.

 

re:bf+P losing to low punch... bf+P doesn't eat up low punches the way a low punch sabaki would, myke was just saying that because it's special high it's almost-as-good-as-a-mid. It CAN beat low punches, but because low punch is faster, d+P will win in most situations.

re: recovery time of whiffed attacks. The recovery time of whiffed attacks is awful, which is why dodge-knee can work. On paper you'll see recovery times for blocked attacks go as far as -20ish at worst. When I do an attack and you block it, you're pushed back and deal with blockstun for a few frames, then you're allowed to attack. If I do an attack and it whiffs, you're allowed to attack as fast as your reflexes will allow.

So back to my earlier point, a whiffed "safe" attack like, say, akira's super dashing elbow, will have at least 20 frames of recovery.. compare that to the SDE's block frames, which is like -6.

With an easy command like f+K, jeffry's knee can be used to punish whiffed attacks if your reflexes are good enough, or if you predict the attack will whiff.

 

Aeon,

Also realize that Evo Jeff's P+K is a mid move that gives +8 on MC. I'm not sure if a throw is guaranteed with hit stun and all, but it's hard to get out of. MC P+K, and splash mountain do 27+70 = 97 damage. P+K is not counterable on block, and has a followup that can be delayed.

Andy

 

"Shun (Chowan), Aoi +, Lion , and Pai 's all require an MC. To boot, the Chowan does nothing but lift the opponent up on duck - no damage."
Gaijin: You know chowan doesn't need counter to float /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Even though chowan won't give you as much damage as Jeff's knee and is special mid it is a 15f move with only -2f on block...that's a fairly abusable power move in my opinion.

 

Yeah, I goofed by saying it required MC, but my point being though, you can duck the chowan, and be 100% safe. It will not only not float, but it won't take off any damage, and frame difference between duck and block is negligible. I agree, when it hits - it hits hard, but the other guy has to be doing something for it to float.

My original point was though, that Jeff's knee is strongest after a dodge, no question about it. I've not done any testing, but I guess a good one would be to find something with an awful recovery, Have Shun dodge it and then throw a Chowan. If memory serves, it won't float, (nor will the other characters moves) whereas Jeff's knee would go to town.

If I'm wrong, I'd definitely love to hear.

 

Hey, I tested it.

Surprisingly, anything slower than a jab is VERY counterable (like chouwan uppercut counterable) if dodged right away. There's no way to come up with a hard formula for 100 percent reliable results since you can do a quick dodge any time from the first to the last frame of the execution of an attack.

For testing, I recorded P (guarded) --> elbow... then tried to punish the whiffed elbow. I was able to minor counter the whiffed elbow with a chouwan every time in lab conditions. I then tested to see how slow I could go for minor counter attacks. Here's what I found.

Vs. a dodged lau/aoi elbow or an akira dashing elbow I was able to get:

14 frame moves - shun's KKd+P, lau's elbow-palm
15 frame moves - shun's chouwan, lau's df+P,P,K combo, etc
16 frame moves - goh standing K, lau sidekick
17 frame moves - shun b+P, goh knee, m-shoulder ram with goh or akira (it's fair to say it takes a little more than 16 frames to do a m-shrm I think, so that's why it's listed here).
18 frame moves - I dunno any off the top of my head, didn't test any.
19 frame moves - with very tight timing I could sometimes land a lau d+P+K, and it was definitely a minor counter to the dodged attack (it did 25% more damage).
20 frame moves - get blocked.

So that's it, ~18 frames is your rigor time for even a small dodged attack like an elbow. Against a dodged sidekick, you can land stuff like an immediate lau df+P+K (21 frames).

Also all of this stuff is off of a blocked jab. In most character's case, that means the dodger is at -1 frame. So you're actually able to do 18-19 frame attacks in a truly neutral situation where you dodge something at the earliest possible moment. In a game situation I'd never try anything slower than a 16 frame attack or a modified 16 frame FC move. A shun player can try for a chouwan or an easier KKd+P for 55 easy pts.

Hope this turns out to be useful.

PS:
I also figured out that one of the millions of tiny subtle advantages akira has is this - the f,f motion for his f,f+P and f,f,f+P aligns him with you and unless the akira player does an absolute frame-perfect P --> f,f,f+P ... his dashing elbow or SDE will track you during your dodge if you dodge right way. That's even if you're at a -1 situation, like after you blocked his jab.
Anyone who says "yeah but akira's weakness is his big moves are really linear" are smoking pages out of the theory fighter book... you have to wait and try to dodge SDE more on reflex IMO.

 

Wow. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Nice job, Creed. This is exactly what i was trying to get at... and if your obervations are on - and from some prelim tests on my end they sure do look accurate - then dodge/knee's gonna be my new favorite weapon. I had no idea a dodged attack puts one at such a disadvantage... not to mention a little yomi is awarded by a greater advantage after the dodge.

Is any of this in a faq anywhere? Because, i don't know if this is out of line, but i think if it ain't it oughta be.

 

Nice info! I'll try a bit of stuff out on my own. Yeah, it'll be a bit different in real battle, but that's the point of playing I suppose.

I do use quite a bit as a counter, namely b/c it's got a relatively safe landing.

One thing though - does Lau and Aoi's elbows have the same recovery time? I'd also say that Lau's has a bit of distance on Aoi's, which might make the countering game a bit different... then again, this is all off the top of my head though.

 

If I could read 1/60th easily... I could tell you if lau and aoi's elbows are much different for whiff recovery. But it's a pain for me.

Maybe you'd like to give it a shot? http://www.dcn.ne.jp/~kazu68k/

My feeling/impression is that aoi's is slightly slower on recovery.

 

you're right, it should be in a faq... it's one of those things that is easily overlooked even if it seems like second nature/common sense once you learn it. Watch clips and you'll see E-shrm with akira and E-upkn-spkn with lau a lot. E-knee is a little more rare and I guess subtly used.