What Makes A Fighting Style?

obviously in games like UFC or Fight Night Champion, we know that the fighting styles come from motion capture and then a little developer license. But for games like Virtua Fighter, DOA, Soul Calibur? Where did Pai's style come from, or Voldo's style? What makes Lei Fei style different from Lei Wu Long or Sarah's different from Anna? I've been trying to get a legitimate knowledgeable answer to this for a long time. Where do these styles come from? Is there some kind of fight game library that each developer uses to give the character moves? Are the moves sets just put together out of the imagination of the developers? The movelists in these games aren't based on motion capture like they are UFC are they?

The developers that came up with Kage Maru's moves what was there basis? Was it just a matter of artistic imagination? I know some of the fighters have a move or two in their movelists that are it least suggestive of real moves that might be done in some fighting system some where, but on the whole, do the developers just use fighting libraries and just collect a set of moves fromt he library and then label it the "such-N-such" style?

Or is the whole style thing an illusion? Meaning that in games like Virtua Fighter there really are no styles, there are only high attack, low attacks, mid attacks, throws , blocks , evades, inashis and sabakis, and everything else is just an animation, and those animations give the illusion of a fighting style.

Is Jeffrey, Wolf, King, Armor King, Bass Armstrong all really just animations that look similar or Taka and Ganyru not really SUMO style moves, they just look like SUMO therefore their style is SUMO?

So based on GEN FU or LEI FEI or Lei Wu Long how the character looks do the developers simply assign them a style? when in reality the movelists are just from a generic library or from the developer imagination.

So does Brad really have a kick boxing style and movelist that was not motion captured but really only
represents the developers idea of what a kick boxing style would look like?

Is it really just about what the character looks like Feng Wei looks like he should use Kempo therefore thats what style the developer assigned him? Are any of Feng Wei's moves anything like Kempo in real life?

At the end of the day what makes a fighting style? Is Wolf and Jeffrey really a different style? Or is it they look different therefore they have a different style? Or is it that Jeffrey has moves 1-10 from the fighting list library and wolf has moves 11 - 20 from that same library and as long as there movelists don't overlap to much that is what make each fighter's style?

Or is something else going on?

Is there someone out there that has developed fighting games, or has seen them developed, or is knowledgeable about how they get developed, that can explain what makes a fighting style in a fighting video game?

 

VF looks like cinema, real life and anime is my guess. Lei Fei looks like he's right out a Shaw Brothers Shaolin film, Shun Di is very "Drunk Master" movies looking to me and Wolf has like the most familiar "TV Wrestling" moves. They took some creative liberties to make the game look cool. Tekken looks the same except a higher degree of creative liberty and anime.

I only remember how the Skulgirls team decided the playstyles and movesets. It was a collaborative effort with the artists and Mike. They would give descriptions and a bunch of sketches to him and he'd decide what they are from there like Cerebella had a few sketches of throwing and pummeling people with the big hat arms, so he says "she's a grappler". How the moves look were based on the character descriptions like Cerebella is an acrobat so her moves look acrobatic and using the hat arms for leverage to do stuff, Filia has a parasite named Samson attached to her head and since they aren't in sync too well, it looks like Samson is forcing her to attack by pushing her limbs or pulling her along. All the artists are familiar with fighting games I think so there's a lot of input and talking between them.

I imagine every team has their own ways of developing characters.

 

It's a bit of a stretch to assume just because a game doesn't use motion capture that all the moves are "made up." Long before we had motion capture, we had rotoscoping(taking pictures of actors and drawing over the top). Karateka was made using rotoscoping, and the actor was an actual Karate practicioner. As such, all the stuff in Karateka is a real "style."

Even without rotoscoping, artists and animators usually have reference material to work with. There's a wealth of video material out there whether instructional or entertainment. It's not hard to find a martial arts manual in the local public library either. Akira, Lei and Lion, Yun and Yang from Street Fighter, Michelle and Julia from Tekken, a bunch of KOF characters, and Lee from Fighter's History all have moves taken from the same 80's martial arts manga, Kenji.

Most of the actors in Mortal Kombat are actual martial artists. Carlos Pesina(Raiden) went on to do motion capture for practically every Mortal Kombat game which had it. For Juri in Street Fighter 4, they got a Taekwondo practicioner in to do a demonstration for the animators, and the animators made a moveset inspired by what they saw.

Obviously stuff can be exaggerated. Sure there are moves that are made up as well, but I can assure you any animator who has worked on a fighting game has looked at a good deal of fighting.

Sure in Street Fighter 1, Joe's spinning back kick is not exactly the same as Benny Urquidez's spinning back kick which the character(and Ken as well) is obviously based off. Joe's spinning back kick goes further and he jumps in a different arc, and the timing of the kick is wrong, but it's still an attempt at recreating a spinning back kick in the game world.

Sure E Honda's Hundred Hand Slap isn't a real move, but it's an exaggeration of the incredible speed and power of a Sumo Harite(palm strike). Have you met a Sumo wrestler in real life? Those guys are not just strong. They're surprisingly fast and flexible, and they have friggin HUUUUGE hands. Do not want to get slapped by a Sumo wrestler.

On another note, there are a lot of moves in games which embody a style without being an actual offensive move. Taka's stomp is not an actual Sumo move, but it's one of their leg training exercises. That Haoh Shokoken motion Dan does while he's in neutral stance in Street Fighter 4? The Hadouken animation which everyone knows so well? Those movements are based off karate arm exercises. There are some characters in other games with moves based on dance styles or other things too. Rasputin from World Heroes has a Cossack dance kick, Lili from Tekken has gymnastics...

For VF, you're actually right about them having a library of moves. Because proper animation rigs hadn't been developed yet, the animation was quite time consuming, so they had shared moves for most characters. Everyone had the same standing . Kage's and Jeffrey's knee were staples for most of the cast. and were the same for every character if I remember correctly. This library however had to be put together from scratch for the game by the developers. There's no secret magical game move library out there.

If you are interested in a fighting game move library, SNK and Capcom have released artbooks which feature sprite keyframes for many of their older games. I'm not sure if they do that anymore, but I have one from KOF99 and used to have one from SF2 World Warrior.

I won't go into different fighting styles in martial arts, because that's a huge can of worms for another topic.

TLDR Game fighting styles are mostly based off some actual style the animators saw somewhere(not always a fighting style). They can be a good representation or a bad one depending on animator's skill and how much they exaggerate.

 

Okay, so if some fight game developer wanted to add a new character to their roster, and say they just chose Taekwondo as the new character's style, from what I think I understand from the above posts, is that developer might view a lot of reference material possibly movies, anime, manga, maybe even some real taekwondo fighters, and the developer might pick some of the more cliche moves, stances, mannerisms, idiosyncracies and stereo-types from the reference material to use for the animations and look and feel for the character.


But those animations, and the look and feel really don't have anything to do with the underlining fight mechanics of the character. Is that right? For instance if the developer is adding a new character and balance is a consideration, then how many low throws, high throws, the mixups, combos, launchers, high attacks, and number of low attacks, are all completely separate from whatever animations and look and feel the character is going to have. Is that right?

So the real style that any video game fighting character has is all about how many high attacks, mid attack, low attacks, throws, reversals etc they have, and how much damage those do, in connection with the variety of combos and the built in mixups. And any animations and look and feel that go along with those are just eye-candy. It that right?

So if I'm adding a new character to VF, I might want think about adding a character that has primary low attack, low throws, with lots of combos that start with high attacks, and the ability to reverse lots of low attacks, etc. These things would be the characters real style, but then does the developer just find the visuals to match the actual. For example could the developer pick snake or panther kung fu so that the stereotypes or cliche moves of the animation, actually match up with the actual focus of low attacks and low throws that the character has?

Don't mean to be juvenile here, but in retrospect it seems every fighting game character has two styles:

1) The look & feel style which is based on animations, and exaggerations that are given to the character by the developer

2) The actual mix of low attacks, high/mid attacks, throws, reversals, evades, combos,
and sequences, frame counts and the point distibution for those moves that are
given to the character by the developer.

Am I correct in assuming that there really is very little (if any) connection between the two styles? And that winning and losing matches depends totally on one's proficiency at the second character's style?

BTW this is in direct contrast to fighting game simulations , where the animations are directly related to fighting mechanics underneath.

So Wolf Marduk, and Armor King might have similar animations, but the real underneath #2 fighting style could be totally different right?

Is this an over simplification of how fighting styles are made?

 

I think it could go either. Maybe they want a specific style in and then decide what particular fighting game role (grappler, zoning, rushdown, etc) it fills or they feel the game needs a particular fighting game role and then they look at what fighting style can be paired to it.

For the "Wolf, Marduk, and Armor King" question, yes they can have similar moves but one of those guys can have more emphasis on landing throws and another could be more emphasis on striking. I don't play Tekken or watch much of it but doesn't the Kings rely on throws and catches more than Marduk?

 

in interviews the devs always talk about kung fu flicks and fighting movies its safe to assume vf fighting styles are based off of those
like shun watch the movie drunken master and you will recognize all his moves

 

Is it true that the characters for from VF4 onward, were based more from motion capture than the older characters i.e. Goh, Brad, Jean, Eileen , Lei, and el Blaze?

 

Regarding VF, it's hard to tell exactly how much is motion capture and how much is the animators doing tweaks. As an example, Lion's "It's show time" intro in VF5 where he points both hands out has been tweaked. Originally it was him putting one hand over the brim of an imaginary hat while pointing with the other hand in early location test footage.

Back to mechanics of the characters as a style, this varies from game to game and depends a lot on the game system. None of the Shotos in the Street Fighter series feel anything like Karate when you play them. They are karate in looks only. On the other hand, NES Musashi No Ken's duelling gameplay actually captures the feel of real Kendo quite well considering the limited technology used. In Tekken, Steve Fox's boxing goes very well with the button layout, and every move you do in-game makes sense with how you do the move on the stick and what button you hit. Hwoauroawatsisname's Taekwondo, while not feeling so great on controls, captures a bit of the agile long range striking feel of real Taekwondo.

In VF, they've done a decent job at creating appropriate feels for certain fighting styles within the constraints of the game system. Shun is full of sabakis, inashis, sushi and mitsubishi bullshit that you can use to toy with your opponent, making him unpredictable, similar to the way drunken boxing is used. Getting through Aoi's defense can be a nightmare, just like the way Aiki Jujutsu is supposed to work. Wolf is all about getting in those huge fancy finishing moves like Pro Wrestling, and Brad plays best as an all out offensive beast, like Muay Thai.

......

But I think in the end, the person who makes a fighting "style" is the player. You can play rushdown Jacky. You can turtle Jacky. You can go for big combos, or just chip away with strings all day. You can be a one trick pony with slide shuffle shenanigans or hit confirm backfists. You can risk it all on nitaku throw/kickflips. The movelist is like a set of Lego, and each player builds his own thing with it. Some will be sturdy and robust, others flamboyant with particular weaknesses, and some will be crap.

The game design might cause certain tactics to be better than others, making disproportionate numbers of players adopt very particular tactics(fireball zoning in Street Fighter, quick jump rushdown in KOF), but in the end, every player chooses his own "style."

 

Excellent points! makes a lot of sense

So could I say a fighting style in video games has 3 style layers.

The outermost layer: is the visual style based on the animations and look and feel of the character. This is the style that the designer gives to the character that conceptually and visually differentiates the character for every other character in the game. This is the style that is often identifies with movies, anime, manga, and in some instances has the look and feel of real martial arts moves.

The second layer: is the move list style. This is actually determined by how many high attacks/mid, low attacks, high/mid throws, low throws, reversals, evades , inashis, sabakis, and the point distribution and frame data for these offensive and defensive moves, this mix is usually unique and balanced between the characters in the game. And no two characters have the exact point distribution and mix of high attacks/mid, low atacks, high/mid throws,reversals etc. So in the same way that characters have a different visual/cosmetic style, that have a unique move list style as well.

And from El-Twelve's post,

The third layer (the inner most layer) : is the player's actual style. This is determined by how each individual player actually uses the character and how they approach the mechanics of the game (Rush down versus turtle, one trick pony's versus combo kings, etc. And although I have seen players who styles that are similar, I've never seen two ppl who have the exact same personal approach to a character and the mechanics of the game. So I would guess player styles are also unique.


So from the comments in this thread so far, I would say that a fighting style is made up of three style layers:

1) Cosmetic Style (Basic on Animations and game designer license)

2) Move List Style

3) Personal Approach to a character and the underlying fighting system


If we just look at Style layers 1 and 2 this is what makes any fighting game different from any other fighting game, and this is what makes any character different from any other character in the same game. Oddly enough it almost seems

That many noobs play the game initially just at layer 1 and thats where the initial fun or non fun happens. And possibly Intermediate players focus far more on the 2nd and 3rd layers of style. And those at the highest level of game play use all three layers of style to win and win consistently?

I do think that we often start out with the pure visual style that a character has, we find a character whose moves look good or awesome, and then once we have found that we then get into the mechanics of that particular fighter and then develop our own styles using that fighter.

In the beginning maybe we do start up with the shallow cosmetic style of the character and for those that stick and stay we ultimately go back to the visual style that attracted us in the first place, but now we bring to that style a great deal of uniqueness.

 

I like your analysis. From what I have read online from developers it seems mostly they have a style that they want to incorporate which is the visual aspect of the moves. They then find a way to tweak the style to satisfy the second second mechanical layer. I remember reading from one of the Tekken developers about how they wanted to include a boxer (Steve) but couldn't find a way to make it work on the mechanical level before Tekken 4. When they did introduce him they added kicks and low punches which boxers don't use to satisfy the mechanical layer. This applies to 3D games though so for 2D ones I have no idea and don't play them anyway.

I have always been attracted to games that I feel authentically represent real martial arts styles. I train in kung fu myself so you could say it's a passion of mine. I love the way Virtua Fighter moves, especially the oriental martial arts practitioners. I couldn't play a game with purely made up stuff like Tekken is becoming. Characters like Voldo, the new Tekken additions etc don't impress me at all.

When selecting characters to learn I usually use a combination of mechanical and aesthetic considerations. But possibly the main consideration is mechnical since I want to win matches . Nina Williams was my main in Tekken and her style is not the best looking in the game but I found it incredibly effective and suited to my tastes and playstyle on the mechanical layer.

 

you're exactly right,

VF has an authentic feel to it. We all know that the visuals are only strong suggestions in the direction of their martial art they represent, and the game is in no way a fighting simulation, but still, VF is honest, its genuine. When you play it you know there are no tricks and no gimmicks. Its the real McCoy. Because of its purity, VF is truly its own form of martial art . And perhaps thats the acknowledgement VF can make to the martial arts, the fact that VF has truly introduced its own legitimate unique style of Virtual Martial Arts, its a valid sport AFAIC. In retrospect the name Virtua fighter fits it perfectly.

 

I fully agree. VF is an honest fighting game. That is why I have been drawn to it. No meters, no comeback mechanics, no rage bars or super EX plus alpha turbo boost moves, just good, honest fighting. I love it. You can feel the heritage in the gameplay from the way it's tuned and the way it moves. Now that I've started playing different opponents online I appreciate it even more .

Playing 3D fighting games is quite close to real sparring in many ways. Looking for openings, fake outs, setups, training a response from your opponent all carry over the real martial arts from what I can tell. A coupe of times I've been taught a move in class only to suggest a completely different but valid application for it than what the instructor says because I play these games and the moves are the the same. An axe kick is an axe kick and how you can use it is the same. Main difference is you would probably break your foot if you are not training properly. Ever tried to sweep someone in real life? It's hard!

As you say: it's not a simulation, but the spirit of martial art is strong with VF.

 

I'm not a "fighter" myself BUT I know someone who is pretty good at martial art. Kung fu to be precise. He noticed lots of moves coming from his martial art. Some of them are really great reproducing exactly what he "think" of this move to be. Of course cannot make it like this because of gravity, Skill needed, stregnth, etc... But the animation is correct for what this perfect move should be.

As far as I'm concerned I like that fighting style are noticeable in the games I play.
I also love the fact that the player can "tune it" to make it his own way. Like "hey this [insert a character] user is playing [insert a type of gaming] so I'll have to do this because it suites my playstyle + strength of my character"... OR NOT.

Like neo says "I know kung-fu" in Matrix I can say: I know the KINGOSTYLE.

 

Ha, this is a nice little general discussion, MrPo.
I think your analysis of 3 layers is pretty spot on. However, it seems you're implying that the 1st and 2nd layers are independent of each other?
In my experience, in good 3D fighters like VF, layers #1 and #2 are closely correlated.

Obvious example is a "wrestling" character will ofc be a grappler class fighter. Finer example is how Akira's discipline is Bajiquan, which emphasizes explosive short-ranged strikes IRL, and is showcased by Akira's distinctive gameplay. This distinguishes him from other strikers, although he is still in the broad class of strikers. Finer example #2 is Pai's Mizongyi, a style of Northern Shaolin long fist (which you should be familiar with) which due to its origin has powerful long-range attacks, but Mizong changes it up with "deceptive hand movements, intricate footwork, varied kicks, and high leaps. The style changes very quickly when executed." These are all represented by Pai in gameplay at all levels of player skill. The great thing about VF is that you can say this for most of its showcased fighters. The only characters IMO who have "generic" gameplay are:

1. Jacky - A generic slugger who takes a bit of inspiration from Bruce Lee, who himself has roots in Wing Chun but advocates "No Style." I guess Jacky's in-your-face speed and power is the basics of JKD.
2. Jeffrey - A generic grappler/ slugger. He says he uses Pankration but that should involve a lot more wrestling than he uses. A true Pankratiast who has the same size and strength as Jeffrey, would annihilate him. I don't think VF loves Jeffrey anyways; he's their token Scary Black Man.
3. Kage - Ninjitsu doesn't exist historically as a martial art. So make any fighter who can do impossible acrobatics, and he's automatically a "ninja."
4. Lau - The most generic fighter in the entire cast. And that's why he has his own made-up style. He's the true Ryu of VF; basically his conception was that he uses the entire stock library of the early VF franchise, to teach newbies of basics of VF movement and chains, and that's his "fighting style."
5. Almost said Sarah, LOL. But no. I think she embodies TKD as a part of her fighting system. She's a MMA, but prefers stand-up game and headhunting.

IMO this is what separates a true martial arts fighting game from games where 2 characters hit each other. AFAIC, 2D fighting games like SF and KoF series have as much martial arts as MvC series, have as much martial arts as Virtua On. There is none. It's just characters/robots/animals/monsters dressed in colorful costumes attacking each other. Tekken has turned into this. DoA has avoided this superficially; it looks exaggerated but still somewhat "authentic." But in terms of deeper gameplay I don't know whether it remains faithful to "martial arts."

 

Found out an interesting thing about Sarah after talking to some guys at a dojo recently.

Since many Western style dojos like to add things to their repertoire, like how a lot of them have added groundfighting to a traditional stand-up fighting base, some teachers avoid referring to what they teach by their traditional names in respect for the original artform. As such, the dojo near my place teaches "Martial Arts", not Karate, even though the head instructor has over 20 years of Karate under his belt.

Knowing this, the listing of Sarah's style as "Martial Arts" made a lot more sense to me.

 

I kind of see her style as a hodge-podge of many things she learned and incorporated for herself, during her training to become a fighter. She has heavy TKD influences with all the kicking, but that's not all she does. In that sense I think she doesn't have one single "master", not even a "Western Martial Arts" master.

As for what you're talking about... My experience is when a particular Western/Modern Dojo takes a root discipline and add things to it, they just start calling it by the founder's name or the dojo chain's name.