What's with the lists??

Discussion in 'The Vault' started by Llanfair, Oct 21, 1999.

  1. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    I am responding to the lists that have been posted by various posters as to who is a specialist etc...

    In particular I am quoting below Shota's list which recently he posted along with some of the disclaimers that came with it.

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    Followings are what I consider to be the good players with specific characters. And...to make a scene, I will boldly include myself in the list as well(so you can measure
    where my ego stands) Note that the people here are only limited to those I have played against.

    Akira - adamYUKI, Hiro
    Jacky - Hiro, Shota
    Sarah - Harold, Hiro
    Lau - Sumeragi, Hiro
    Pai - None
    Kage - Harold, Hiro, Rich, Ice-9
    Jeffry - Omaha Jeffry, Hiro
    Wolf - Hiro, Andy (Chicago)
    Lion - Hiro, Jason Cha, Shota
    Shun - Nelson, Ice-9
    Aoi - None
    Taka - Hiro

    In selecting these people, I picked those who seem to have a very good understanding of the charatcters they use. As a result, some people who can play more
    impressively or do fancy combos are not here. Even though such are important, knowing as many defense options after the blocked elbow counts more in my personal
    criterion.
    Therefore, Hiro, who is usually against the advanced "tricks", made it to a lot of characters because he very well understands the essences of each charatcter.

    <hr></blockquote>

    I'll be honest, I found the list rather insulting. It's not that I want certain people to be on the list, it's just that I feel there's been a few people who should've been mentioned that were not.

    I found it rather amazing that no one was mentioned for Aoi. If I had to nominate someone, it would be that guy from chicago who's name eludes me...big guy...or, for that matter, Kbcat, who's played her since VF3 came out. I would certainly classify Kbcat's ability to play Aoi far greater than just "impressive play". I would also classify Kbcat into the Taka category - I recall him trouncing many a person at the Chicago gathering during the mini 'team' tournament. Those who were there will also remember this as well. Furthermore, why not include Carlo for Taka? He wrote the only available Taka FAQ there is! Who's to say that he doesn't play anymore? I saw him at the arcade no less than 3 weeks ago, still dedicated to using Taka - and a damn fine Taka player if you ask me.

    Under Jacky, why has Clem's name not been added?? He was at the Chicago gathering and his Jacky is more consistent than anyone's I've ever known. In fact, Shota remembers reading Clem's RGVA posts on Jacky back in the VF2 days. His stapleness with Jacky is more than excellent - as a side fact, Clem has never placed under the final four in *any* VF2 or VF3 tournament he's played in. He still plays and is one of the best Jacky players around.

    Now, I'm raving, I know. But this list and the one previous was poorly thought. Personally, while reading the above list, I would then have to classify my own Kage skills as being one "who can play more impressively or do fancy combos" and therefore NOT as one "who seem to have a very good understanding of the charatcters they use". I disagree.

    I have more questions, really - why was Rich not named originally for Kage?? The man has been playing him for years! He knows more about the character than anyone else and is deadly with him. Without a doubt, Rich has contributed more to Kage than anyone else and he deserves more credit than 'oh yeah, Rich from Boston plays Kage too...'

    I feel that the list is way too 'gathering attending bias'. This does not determine who's great or not. I know it's easier to compare skill with one who've you played against personally but let's not forget that this is the end all be all. I would also have included Jo Shun in the list but many of you have not played him and thus he remains a myth of VF skillfullness. I will add to those who refer to Chibita as being a 'great' player that Jo Shun has beaten Chibita ten in a row while visiting a friend in Japan. Now, that's got to say something about his ability to play Akira. Perhaps his 70+ win streaks in Hong Kong only indicate that he's average at the game as well.

    I know, Shota, that you didn't want to start a flame war, and I hope this isn't one, I just feel that the list is skewed an severely incomplete.


    Cheers,

    <font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>
     
  2. Nutlog

    Nutlog Well-Known Member

    Let's see. I do remember Taka from Chicago, and no, it wasn't the dominating force at any stretch during the time we were all there.

    Faustino is decent, actually pretty good, at Aoi, but no, he really does not play enough, or know enough on consequence to be labeled as a specialist. (Sorry, Faust, but I'm bein honest)

    And as for the Kage player namings, as I said, it's fuzzy on that note. I haven't played Rich, but I've played many who have. He's definitely one of the top 5 and so he was named one of the top 5. Is he THE kage man. Maybe, maybe not. I've played against the other 4 that were mentioned, and my personal rankings from those would be Hiro, Harold, Jeff, Llanfair. Where Rich fits in there, I dunno, but all 4 agree he's up there with em. None says he's the best, but opinions vary, that's why with a character so popular, I didn't name just one person.

    Nutlog
     
  3. adamYUKI

    adamYUKI Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    adamYUKI
    XBL:
    adamYUKI
    PAI..NONE?!?!?! Where the $!@@*^& did i go....am i chopped liver huh?? HEHE.....this is ANDY by the way....I happen to think that my PAI is capable of some serious RAPEage......just kiddin...........grrrrrrrrr.... ^_^; LATERZ!!!!!!!!!!
     
  4. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    LOL Andy! /images/icons/smile.gif I for one will nominate Andy's Pai!

    As for my Kage...take it off the list...take it off the list I say! My ninja...sucks...Must...improve...knee...

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  5. Nutlog

    Nutlog Well-Known Member

    This was Shota's list:

    Akira - adamYUKI, Hiro
    Jacky - Hiro, Shota
    Sarah - Harold, Hiro
    Lau - Sumeragi, Hiro
    Pai - None
    Kage - Harold, Hiro, Rich, Ice-9
    Jeffry - Omaha Jeffry, Hiro
    Wolf - Hiro, Andy (Chicago)
    Lion - Hiro, Jason Cha, Shota
    Shun - Nelson, Ice-9
    Aoi - None
    Taka - Hiro

    This was the list I mailed out:

    Akira - Adam Yuki
    Jacky - Shota, Jesse & Boyd
    Sarah - Alexei, Harold, Me
    Lau - Sumeragi
    Pai - Andy (NYC)
    Kage - Jeff, Harold, Hiro, Rich, Llanfair
    Jeffry - Omaha Jeffry
    Wolf - Hiro, Andy (Chicago)
    Lion - Shota, Ed, Jason Cha
    Shun - Nelson
    Aoi - Clopin
    Taka - Hiro

    Along with a general note that Hiro can play nearly any character to the level of any of the US best.

    Nutlog
     
  6. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    Well, IMHO, to leave Clem out of the Jacky category is just plain ignorant. Rarely, have I seen a more consistent Jacky player. Shota's name is there, as it should be. But he's not the only one. And from what been tossed around, Hiro is in a class of his own. I hope he can make it to Toronto in January. ;)

    I'm flattered to have been included in the Kages - there are thousands of us...hehe, along those lines: Myke, why aren't you up there?? ;) The BKK will always live.

    Cheers,


    <font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>
     
  7. sta783

    sta783 Well-Known Member

    Re: Friday...finally my time has freed up to write

    I'm glad that the discussion has been cool, inspite of my seemingly instigating messages. In response to these posts, I will try to be as honest as I can. I will probably offend some; but after meeting Hiro, I've realized that living in personal euphoria really does not improve one's game. In light of that, I am on to criticize people's gameplay, or vice versa, if you have some suggestions to improve MY game. But please remember, I usually do not fail to give credits to those who deserve.

    Those people in the list have something that I admire. Let it be Adam's flowless execution and dominating offense, Sumeragi's vast knowledge and ability to actually execute them all, that's something only they can offer (again based on what I have actually SEEN).

    Now...in composing this controversial list, I made myself clear that the list is strictly based on my playing experience. As a result, Jo Shun and Carlo cannot be in the list, because I've never played them.

    My criteria of the list is fairly simple. They are:
    1) Knowledge
    2) Execution
    3) Competitiveness

    Since 1) and 2) must be apparent, I will touch on 3) only. "Competitiveness" is this invisible pressure I receive when I play someone. I don't know what else to say, but it is the feeling that if I don't do my best, he/she will be sure to fuck me up. It is an ability to sense and capture the atmosphere of the match.
    For example, at the Chicago gathering, Jay (Jacky) and I (Jacky) fought in the team battle tournament. Now, everyone, including Jay himself, admits that I know more and can execute better in the game of VF3 (that's because Jay plays VF3 only once every 3 months). I had 2-0 lead and on my way to finish Jay in the 3rd round. Then Jay somehow caught me with the PG throw. He subsequentlly connected with elbow-spinkick -> small pounce. At first I felt little strange and awkward, but by the time I lost the 3rd round, I got SCARED. I knew that I was losing the momentum and desperate to get it back; but my frozen hands&brain betrayed me. Jay at the end beat me with 2-3.

    And my experience tells me that this "competetiveness" has very weak correlation with knowledge and executional ability. Although knowing more helps assume this "aura", I've seen many technically-skilled players lack competitiveness.

    In my opinion, Chicago group place below-average in knowledge and execution. It may be my fault because I was lazy to share the information among the group. But a few from Chicago, Harold, Andy (Wolf), Ed, Jay, exhibit sufficient competitiveness. That's why Andy's Wolf may look amateurish but still manages to win.

    I used to detest this so called "ghetto" style. I used to think that decorating my play with KS and flashiness was an absolutely must. Sooner or later, though, after losing quite a few games in Chicago and Japan, I noticed that my style was all pretty but void of contents.

    Among Kage players, Rich strikes me with very solid gameplay, constatly making an effort to destroy the other's deffense, Ice-9 with his consistency in high-damaging TFT combos, and Harold with his "bitchness"(one possibility for the competitiveness) coupled with sonic-rolls.

    Llanfair, you are a good Kage player; but you did not impress me with anything particular. That is my very frank opinion. Nowadays anyone can do P, elbow, and TFT-Knee combos. In Japan, we sometimes use the term "mass-production Kage". You should sharpen your skills on something no one else does, something ONLY you can market.

    Lastly, I do not believe your story of Jo Shun vs. Chibita. Once again, I have never seen Jo Shun play. It is so easy to SAY that he has beaten some famous player, especially on the Internet. How do they know that it was really Chibita? Did they have actually have a conversation? I'm sure Chibita will be interested in someone who can beat him 10 times in a row?? Was Chibita with some other players, and how did Jo do against them?

    Now if Jo himself was telling me this story, I would not be so harsh. Jo and I can have a conversation and find out what HE thought of the Japanese players. But I cannot take such one-liner, "Jo beat Chibita 10 times", too seriously. I beat both Muscle Sarah and Hijitetsu too. I am not lying about this. This one-liner may imply that I am better than Hijitetsu.... Only after saying that my win came only after losing 10 times, my story becomes more credible.
     
  8. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: Friday...finally my time has freed up to write

    Bwahahaha, my one claim to fame--it was I, aisu-kyu, who broke Kurita's 28 winning streak in Kani Spo. Yes, ME. Heh heh heh...too bad I got Excellented twice in the subsequent match, losing an embarrassing 5-2. /images/icons/frown.gif

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  9. sta783

    sta783 Well-Known Member

    Re: Kurita match

    Ice-9, I also heard that you were CLOSELY watching Kurita throughout his entire winning streak. Shouldn't you include that in the footnote also? *grin*
     
  10. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    The matter is circular

    Shota,

    I understand you're viewpoint - oneliners are useless themselves. For this reason, I am going to give up on this discussion. It truly is not right for me speak for Jo and skills - this is his job when he so choses to do. Same applies for Clem - he will speak when he feels it to appropriate...it's my not place. I will admit, I was hasty in my 'list attacking' post only because I am passionate about the accuracy of the data of the game and it's players. Agreeably, there is no true scale by which to judge us players. It's very difficult to find one arbitrator who has seen or experienced all those who qualify as 'great' or 'good' and then rank them on an objective scale. In my above post, I was by no means trying to push my own skills across as being stellar. I play at an above average level - but I am no a great player. I hope this thread has not detered our standing as equals who play this game. I respect your opinion just as much as you respect mine. This was clear through your hospitality and friendship shown in Chicago.

    Now, enough of this trifle talk. I'm excited about the Toronto Gathering - this will be a great opportunity for us to meet again and also a chance for those who have never been to Canada, to experience our bitter cold winters! Just kidding. ;)

    I hope the gathering will a great VF-fest of fun - no more, no less ;) And I look forward to it.

    As for Jo's Chibita story - I stand corrected, he was not playing Chibita in Japan; it actually took place in Hong Kong. As for the exect details, I do not know them. I'm sure Jo would be more than happy to tell you of his Chibita experience when the two of you finally meet. I do know one thing though, Jo would not lie about such an event. I agree, it's quite an amazing thing to have bested Chibita during an evening of play. However, it is of no advantage for Jo to make something like this up. Jo doesn't boast, he doesn't brag, in fact sometimes it's difficult to get him to talk until he knows you well. I trust his judgement in the accuracy of his story to me. Perhaps there is more to it than we know - this is entirely possible.
    How did know what Chibita looked like? Well, Shota, for one thing, Chibita's not the best looking guy around! (what's with that hair?) ;) His picture has been featured in the TB Mook and I'm sure if one knew where to look, they could find a lot of information about Chibita.

    Nevertheless, I'm glad Nutlog originally took to DailyRadar with some aggression and information about VF here in North America. DailyRadar did have a point though: VF3tb is indeed an old game. I'm sure the rest of you, including myself, are anxiously awaiting word about Virtua Fighter 4. I just truly hope it exists.

    Cheers,

    <font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>
     
  11. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Well, like you said Llanfair, there are just too many of us out there now. Shota put it well with the term "mass production kage". And besides, real ninjas move in stealth, and don't have their names advertised on lists /images/icons/wink.gif

    BTW, say hi to Clem for me. I wonder if he still remembers me - we met at the Vancouver VF3 gathering a few years ago.

    <pre>__
    Myke
    </pre>
     
  12. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: Kurita match

    Ahh, Shota, but the yomi, the yomi!!

    Damn I was really feeling it that match. Check this out--

    Kurita's trademark is hopping backwards with Taka when the opponent is down to create some distance so he can apply okizeme pressure with some of Taka's long range attacks (I've since copied his trademark /images/icons/wink.gif). He loves to D,f+P right away if he thinks you're going to rise with an attack or attempt to close in on him.

    Well I saw the D,f+P coming and--BOOM--b+P+K reversal with Kage. Heh heh, that's a clear statement that I knew the D,f+P was coming (it's actually much more rewarding for me to block the attack and counter throw or at least evade and flip kick).

    The next time he did that little hop, he thought I was going to do that reversal again so he ran straight into me and attempted a throw. Well, I knew he was going to try that so I K(G) cancelled. Oops, miss throw animation, get that TFT outta there!!

    The third time, I knew he was going to play it safe because at this point he's probably not really sure what I was going to do. So after hopping backwards he just blocked, wanting to see what I'll pull off next. Well, I knew he was thinking that so I ran up to him right away and TFTed again--hee hee, I wish I coulda seen the look on his face.

    THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is yomi!!!!!! /images/icons/smile.gif

    The rest of the match I was just being super cheap with a "factory manufactured Kage" (Ps, elbows, P,P,helix, and lots and lots of HCB rolls).

    Of course, it took me nearly an hour and a half waiting in line for my turn against the great Kurita, with my eyes carefully fixated on every little guessing game he favored to get that edge on him. Heh heh...victory was sweet though. Too bad I got my ass whupped right after. /images/icons/frown.gif

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  13. sta783

    sta783 Well-Known Member

    Re: addition of Aoi player

    Well, I realize that I also made a mistake of explaining more about the list. I said that the list is based on those I've played against; but many of you may not know exactly who I've played.
    I did not include following North America "big names" simply because I don't know them.

    Jo Shun, Carlo, Creed, Clem, GodEater, Clopin, Brian Mak, (and who else?)

    Yes, I've met Clem and GodEater, but they were mostly out sight seeing while their stay in Chicago. When they were playing, I was stuck at the airport or in the traffic. I may have seen Clem play maybe once; but of course, I cannot make a meaningful judgement. Clopin, I met him once two years ago, and his Aoi was quite complete at that time, but once again, I have no idea how he plays nowadays.

    Speaking of Aoi player, I forgot to include Bryan aka "little Bryan" from Minnesota. He plays infamous machi play and does not know too much about the game. However, he is the strongest Aoi player in my VF career; he could also be the strongest VF player in NA (of whom I've played), with a possible exception of Hiro. When Chicago and Minnesota groups took a joint trip to Kani-Spo arcade in Shinjuku, Bryan was the only one among us who could hold on his own.

    Whenever I had to play Bryan, I felt like giving away before the match because I felt I could not possibly beat him. In that regard, even Hiro or those famous Japanese players did not inplant such feeling in me.
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: my two cents

    I am not sure where I should put my reply so I would just put it here. . .
    First of all, I personally think this whole thread is stupid.

    But given that,
    If anyone deserves to be under the list as Pai specialist, I guess I should nominate
    Jason Cha. (among the players I played.) According to Shota's criteria I guess
    he lacks in the competitive category as he doesn't build monster win streaks in the gatherings
    with his Pai. But he knows a lot and his Pai is fairly complete. (And yes, I think
    he deserve to be in the list more than Andy.)

    Well, in my opinion and Shang's opinion Rich deserves to be ranked higher than
    Harold, but then of course we are biased so take it with a grain of salt.

    And about Clem--well, I never played him in VF3, but I remember him NOT making top
    four in MoaT 2.1.

    And of course, I believe Joji could have wiped the floor with the half the people on that list--
    only if he didn't drop off the face of the earth.

    Hyun
     
  15. Jason Cha

    Jason Cha Well-Known Member

    Re: my two cents

    Hey Hyun,

    Yah, baby!! Boston Crew Lives!!!!

    Not only did you give me props, and say that Rich kicks ass, but you finished with the ultimate, that Joji would kick ultimate ass if he had the time to show up....

    And I thought VF in Boston had died...

    -Jason
     

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