What's your angle?

** <span style="font-size: 11pt">I apologize if this has been done before or if there is another thread like it.</span> **


Every one of us has many reasons for why we prefer VF over other fighting games. It could be because of the depth of the game or it could be because of something simple such as the throw escape system. Regardless of why we prefer VF or any other fighting game the purpose of playing the game whether it be against the CPU or a human opponent is to win.

What is winning though? How is it done or better yet how do you go about achieving it? When the CPU announcer says " GO! " or " Fight! ", what's your angle in breaking down your opponent and the things that he does?

* Are there specific things you are looking for based on the character that he / she is playing?

* Do you have a specific style that you use depending on whether or not your opponent is offensive or defensive?

* How do you go about solving the problem to a new situation your opponent may put you in that you have never been in before?

* Are you looking for your opponent’s habits or patterns?

* If you opponent is abusing a move that keeps defeating you how do you go about keeping a clear mind, staying focused to find the answer before calling foul, complaining or quitting?

* If your opponent is always evading your attacks do you pay attention to something as simple as to which side of the screen they keep evading too and applying an answer to disrupt their flow?

* Do you pay attention to whether or not your opponent likes to tech roll or stay grounded?

* Is your opponent a fan of rising attacks or not?

* Do you use Dojo mode or is all of your training solely based on Quest mode or Online play?

* Do you prefer to mimic a style (say favorite Japanese player) or come up with your own unique one?


I'm asking all of these weird questions, because I really would like to understand what goes through the minds of some of the players here. Sometimes I play with some of you guys online, I cannot understand why you do some of the things that you do.

For example, ( and I hope my boy KingOfCarnage doesn't mind me using him as an example? ), but when I play with Carnage I noticed immediately 2 (possibly 3) years ago that he just will not use rising attacks EVER. I think it's amazing that he can play on the level that he does without using it. But then I have to ask myself is he playing the game just for fun or is he actually trying to win? Fun or not at the end of a round when the announcer yells " KO! " I'm sure none of us want to be that person on the ground. By not applying a single rising attack over a 10 game set is pretty amazing if you ask me, but very dangerous because you let your opponent dictate your faith every time you try to stand up.

Another example is Goh player who just keep firing off shots of + every chance they get. It's like the ultimate panic attack for noobs, but very dangerous in the hands of intermediates who have an idea of what's going on. It's dangerous in the sense that it gets really fucking annoying quickly and even after eating a handful of knee kicks or middle kick they still don't learn and just keep firing off more shots.

What kills me more is when + fails its load the DM gattling gun. It's not my right to tell people how to play or how to enjoy the game, but seriously as a Goh player shouldn't you be looking for the patterns on how your opponent uses there punch and elbows before you start firing off random shots +... sometimes 2-3 times in a row if the first one fails?

So for anyone who wants to chime in, what's your angle on winning and breaking down your opponent?

 

When I played VF I ultimately look at opponent behavior and try to make an educated decision in what they're going to do based on their exhibited knowledge of the game. You get a sense of how good someone understands the game by their defensive ability.

If someone doesn't understand frame advantage or disadvantage it made the game a lot easier to win. I'd constantly use situations that would leave me at advantage and get the counter hit. Plus that would give me the opportunity to use unsafe moves where I would normally get punished and get away with it. Once you instill offensive pressure that leads up to throw barrages.

To summarize what I just said, basically I look for my opponents knowledge of the game and try to play a solid frame based game. If it seems their knowledge is lacking I will take advantage of it by throwing out moves that are less safe (high angles) for higher reward.

One of the biggest problems I personally have in any game is giving players too much credit. You can ask Slide the same thing and he'll tell you the same thing happens to him. Often times if someone falls for something over and over again, I'll try to switch it up so that I'm not playing too linear or pattern based and I'll end up paying for it. The game is really a two way street in where the opponent has to perform well to make the game very interesting.

But that's one of the best qualities about VF and sets it apart from all other FGs imo. The ability to be locked into a clash of minds.

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The game is really a two way street in where the opponent has to perform well to make the game very interesting.</div></div>

Quoted for truth.

When I tried to show some people VF it wasn't impressive when two people who knew nothing played each other and it wasn't impressive if I played someone who knew nothing.

From a player's point of view, playing someone who doesn't know what they are doing is very boring and it forces you to repeat the same pattern over and over to get the win. When I find myself in a situation like that i find myself creating mix ups were there should be none because my opponent never changes their approach.

I pay enough attention to what my opponent is doing to get me by most of the time but there is still a lot of room for improvement. I still freeze up against characters I'm unfamiliar with as I don't know what leaves them + and where their strings end. I suppose to some extent that can be blamed on how small the pool of players is. Still, I know I could rememdy that with time in the dojo, it's just a matter of finding the time and drive to do so.

I suppose the thing i watch out for most is what my opponent does after a tech roll. My main character is Wolf and when I use him I focus a lot on w hat happens when people are getting back to their feet as it happens several times in a round. I find that people have more of a tendancy to form habits after tech rolls than in a lot of other situations. So with Wolf if I know what's coming I can usually win withing 2 right guesses. This has transferred over to my learning of other characters.

I probably pay the least amount of attention to what people do o ff of 2P, be it blocked, a hit or a counter hit. I know what I'm supposed to do but I find playing with frames that small online, what you're supposed to do doesn't always work. Because of this I have neglected my 2P game in favour of mostly online bullshit. Again, I understand completely that this will be a massive weakness when I play someone good offline but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. As I said, the knowledge is there I justy don't put it into practice as often as I should.

When I come across a move or moves that are beating me outright my typical response is to make a mental note to check it in the Dojo at some point and just try and figure out a way about it whilst I'm playing. But wether or not I go to the dojo is a completely different matter. If the character I was playing was not someone I play regularly then chances are I'll forget about it and move on. Ultimately this lack of knowledge will come back and bite me in the ass but again, the small player pool and lack of character variation comes into play here.

It's probably worth mentioning that the people I play somewhat regularly play the following characters: Akira, Eileen, Wolf, Jacky, Goh and Pai(and to some extent Lion). As such those are the characters I only really know what I'm doing against.

When/if I decide to try and take my game to the next level I'll make a point of ironing out these flaws but without any real motivation there is really no point in me busting my ass at the moment. There's no one playing in my area, I play the same 4 or 5 people online all the time and there are no major offline events scheduled in my country.

As for the last thing on your list, I don't mimic anyone I've seen in videos. Hell I don't watch a lot of videos, everything I learn is either written down here somewhere or I've picked it up from playing someone else or is just a common deduction of what I should be doing.


I know people who strive to emulate the playstyle of someone they have watched *cough* Hazzerone *cough* but they don't seem to realise that we are playing on a totally different level than the people we watch. I think the main problem with that is people mistaking an educated guess for a flowchart.

I think everyone who plays VF has some sort of goal. Be it to enjoy the game, beat a particular person or perhaps to be the best. In fact, hav ing said that, I think everyone really wants to be the best wether they want to admit to it or not. I suppose my long term goal in VF is to drag myself up the ladder at some point (I.E when I can be bothered to). Not so much to prove to others but to prove to myself that I achieved what I set out to do.


I have these "milestones" of sorts that I need to pass, be it against an old rival of mine or to take a place I feel is within my reach. First and foremost, I want to be able to beat Feck consistently, with some work, I think I can achieve that. He's always been hovering above me since I started playing so by being able to get to that point I will have known I've improved.


My next Milestone is Marly. I can actually remember when he started playing, I was still using Wolf online and I can remember he was just learning the game and Eileen. After a while I was without Xbox live for quite some time and just stopped playing VF. When I came back he had jumped right past me. I felt I've caught up to him recently and know that if I push myself a little bit further I could be winning more games against him.

Then we have FadedFilm. Easily the best player in my country (out of a whopping 6 players), not to sound big headed but I think that I am probably second best in Scotland, behind Faded. If we get a new installment of VF I'm sure he'd start playing regularly again which would give me a chance to see where I stack up. I've improved a lot since the last time we played but I'm still unsure if I could take him.

The next stop on my VF journey is HOWL. This is probably the most important one for me. Ever since I started playing VF he's always been a few steps ahead of me, whenever he started learning a new character I found myself jumping to that character so that I could do better against him. He's given me tips and advice ever since I started playing which I appreciate and he's always been a target of sorts, the day I can go toe to toe with him I know I will have stepped up to a whole different level.

If I reach that point I'll be one of the best in the UK. From there I would have to become the best in Europe, again, many tough opponents to look towards, Krye, Jeneric, Bob and several others. From Europe I would have to go to the US where things get that much steeper. Then finally Japan. I imagine that if I ever did succeed in making it as far as playing toe to toe with the best in europe and America I would be able to stand my ground over there.


Anyway, I'm going on now. But still, many more years left in my life, plenty of time to accomplish all of that. of course, if VF dies out over the next few years and I'm the only one playing I'll become the best by default so fingers crossed.

Sorry about the big post but when I got started I found it kinda had to stop.

 

I guess a lot of players on VFDC will get something out of this thread. Good lengthy post.

Rodney, I guess you're thinking too much. You have all the skills to break down any opponent. If you try to put it all together in the middle of a match, it will overwhelm you and make you come to a standstill instead of taking the win.

At this point in your VF career, if you lose it should only be because your guessing was off for a moment. Technically you have clean and 90%+ accurate input. You have all the fundamentals down from your defensive options to dealing out guaranteed damage (If you've got the character knowledge). Everything else is just shenanigans.

Your performance might improve the more relaxed you are. In order to be the last one standing at the end of the round, my advice is to think less and just play the way you want. You know, VF is a highly psychological game. If you can use all the fundamentals and read your opponent, you'll win the game no matter how strong your opponent is or whatever shenanigans they may throw at you. I think you take the hard road to winning after having built a solid foundation. You're looking for some strategy or some angle to get an upper hand on your opponent, but I don't think something like that really exists. If someone beats you without having that same solid foundation, it's more than likely because you're getting beat psychologically, instead of getting beat skill wise. I used to complain that I lost because the opponent spammed dmpk, 2p, turtled or played some frustrating way. That wasn't the right response, those are excuses.*

If they do have that solid foundation, there are times you need to man up and just decide your opponent might be the better player because they might be the better guesser. Yomi out rules every shenanigan, abare setup, oki setup etc.

*The only exception to this is lag over live. For example, if you throw out guaranteed damage and it's guarded or if you elbow after a guarded 2p only to get hit by another 2p, do yourself a favor and quit instead of telling yourself you'll find other ways to win. At that point neither of you are playing VF the way it was designed.

 

Andy I don't disagree with anything that you have said. You are right at times I am thinking to much and I definitely have the skill and knownledge to break anyone or most players down.

At this point in my VF career I'm playing for enjoyment man, but honestly it's hard to find in a lot of the players because of there lack of simple BASIC knowledge. I honestly do not go into a session with players expecting to streak. If the streak comes then so be it. I go into sessions assuming I will be challenged based on the games fundamentals. Unfortunately this sort of challenge only comes from a handful of people who take the time out to read, ask questions, study frames, etc. VF is not rocket science and just by applying common sense and paying attention to what's happening is sometimes all you need to get better. If you are playing the game just for casual fun then that alone can be enough to get to a decent level if you pay attention. But many players seem to overlook the simplest of things in regards to getting better even when they ask and are told about it. I guess this is what I am trying to understanding about the people who still play.

If you do a combo and it's blocked and punished 15 times in the last 5 matches obviously your not paying attention. So if you are not paying attention to something as simple as that then again I ask the question then what are you playing for... what's your angle and where are you going with this?

No answer is a bad answer! And thanks to those who have contributed so far.

Glory... EXCELLENT post by the way!

 

My angle? I think everyone that's played me knows that I'm into mixups. I have a LITTLE frame knowledge when it comes to getting hit with P or P (CH) or 2P, other than that my frame knowledge is pretty nill. My defensive acumen is pretty bad too.

I'll be completely honest if I win against you it's generally because you failed to guess high/throw, mid, or low. I play VF in a very 2D mindset which gets me side stepped all the time. How did I adapt to getting evaded? I started throwing a LOT. I never was a good whiff punisher because I'm laughably bad at punishing whiffed moves. I prefer to stand right next to you and hit you until you freeze up so that I can throw you.

I've gotten some praise for guessing right but I never turn my guesses into damage simply because I'm always trying to think of a way to trick you instead of hurting you. Even people that I may have a positive record against do WAY more damage against me than I do against them on any guess. The biggest witness to this is probably Numbers! (Hey bud!)

Once in a while though I'll get my head into the game. You'll see me evading, baiting whiffs, and going for high damage. (I don't even know what max damage is with Shun.)

One of my biggest flaws I think is getting fixated on using too many moves during the match; at least with Shun. Strangely enough I think playing Shun has made my Jeffry better.

 

Whats My angle?

Being locked in a dramatic thats a war of the wills. There nothing better than knowing that your round is on the line for your mistakes or stubborn ways. Since i can't play chess in real life VF lets me play chess in the form of action sequences.

*Are there specific things you are looking for based on the character that he / she is playing?

Yes! my first instinct is to see what greater player that uses said character will be mimicked. Also i want to see set ups and mix up will be used.

* Do you have a specific style that you use depending on whether or not your opponent is offensive or defensive?
Cautious-ness lol!! I always start out my match checking to see the frame of mind of my opponent. If he's defensive then i put pressure on him trying to bait him. I'll try to expose his weakest attribute to make him conscious about it.


* How do you go about solving the problem to a new situation your opponent may put you in that you have never been in before?
By applying Common logic. Addition and subtraction.

* Are you looking for your opponent’s habits or patterns?
always until i invert it.

* If you opponent is abusing a move that keeps defeating you how do you go about keeping a clear mind, staying focused to find the answer before calling foul, complaining or quitting?

Take a deep breath and use the old adage "Knowing is half of the battle" With that being Said i aim to eliminate it if its the only move beating me.

* If your opponent is always evading your attacks do you pay attention to something as simple as to which side of the screen they keep evading too and applying an answer to disrupt their flow?

Hell Yeah!!! Punish correctly and make the opponent second guess his moves rather than having full confidence.

* Do you pay attention to whether or not your opponent likes to tech roll or stay grounded?

Sure everybit of damage counts.

* Do you use Dojo mode or is all of your training solely based on Quest mode or Online play?

Dojo mode is essential to learn and practicing. I have training drills that i do in dojo to get my hands up to speed and reflexes sharp. Quest mode is also essential because you can try your characters progress against a difficuly AI. Its easier to see how much you remember under pressure when the CPU is getting in that ass lol!!


* Do you prefer to mimic a style (say favorite Japanese player) or come up with your own unique one?

Sometimes if it gets results. More than likely what you may see a japanese player do is a logical strength of the character.
Everybody mimics soe one at a point.Hell I even Mimic some of Denkai Moves coming up with Jacky, Flash with wolf and T-Fam with Brad.

 

lol i still wonder how my dmg ratio still cant get a rd out of u twp ya got a higher willpower or something. As for moves im fixated also using and doing too much.

 

* Are there specific things you are looking for based on the character that he / she is playing?

Yeh, of course. Watch out for 2P and high disadvantage moves their character has. That's the gist of it for me against most characters, but every character has something you must look out for which I don't care to elaborate on.

* Do you have a specific style that you use depending on whether or not your opponent is offensive or defensive?

Fuck it just wait till you're at + frames then 2P or mid lol.

* How do you go about solving the problem to a new situation your opponent may put you in that you have never been in before?

Fuck new situations just hit the other person.

* Are you looking for your opponent’s habits or patterns?

Yes if they are going to stand their biting their fingernails I WILL launch them. Mum also said that's a bad habit.

* If you opponent is abusing a move that keeps defeating you how do you go about keeping a clear mind, staying focused to find the answer before calling foul, complaining or quitting?

Xbox Guide > Y > Up + A = 100% combo.

* If your opponent is always evading your attacks do you pay attention to something as simple as to which side of the screen they keep evading too and applying an answer to disrupt their flow?

Evade...ME?!

* Do you pay attention to whether or not your opponent likes to tech roll or stay grounded?

These questions are getting boring.

* Is your opponent a fan of rising attacks or not?

Not sure if they've joined any fanclubs or not.

* Do you use Dojo mode or is all of your training solely based on Quest mode or Online play?

Of course I do how else do you think I get pro skills like mine?

* Do you prefer to mimic a style (say favorite Japanese player) or come up with your own unique one?

Why would I mimic a style? I'm already better than the best Jap players.

 

Triumph through pure aggression and attrition

 

I focus mainly on creating a unique style of offense that makes me stand out. My lack of great defensive timing tends to frustrate me especially when I know how to respond to attackers and fail to do so in a timely manner. It is improving some but it is still terrible regardless of how much time I spend in dojo because online play changes everything and what I do in dojo won't always work as well online. I am an offensive minded person that never played a good defense but finding that right blend of attack and defensive mixups will always be my biggest hurdle but I will keep trying anyway because I love playing VF.

 

Hazzerone... These were not serious questions for anyone to answer, but more so to give people an idea of the type of answer I'm looking for. Like what goes through your mind overall.

SDS took it upon himself to answer in this fashion. If the questions are boring and pointless the simple answer here is just DON'T POST!

 

What the fuck are you talking about? You tried to throw a jab then throw it off by saying it a good read? FOHWTBS!!!

My Man Rod man a good thread plain and simple. I took time to answer it because hopefully people can see the different method people use. to combat certain situations. If you don't want to read it then don't.

 

** I apologize if this has been done before or if there is another thread like it. **
No problem, I like your angle!

* Are there specific things you are looking for based on the character that he / she is playing?
Yes, especially when I learn the other characters more. For example, with certain characters I know to evade to the body, and others their back, also depending on how frequently they use the given move. Also depending on the character I have to know their strings so I can duck in-between it to punish for example, I'm not very good at that yet!

* Do you have a specific style that you use depending on whether or not your opponent is offensive or defensive?
Not really, I usually play the same whether my opponent is defensive or offensive, HOWEVER, I do tweak a few things in what I do. Against an offensive opponent I like to use knee push more often then a defensive one for example, and I like to ETEG more against an offensive opponent.

* How do you go about solving the problem to a new situation your opponent may put you in that you have never been in before?
This is very difficult for me, I usually take a very long time to adjust to something new. I either don't change up and lose big time, or I'll actually give matches away if it means being able to figure out what I have to do.

* Are you looking for your opponent’s habits or patterns?
Very recently, I fought SDS and he said that I always evade after eating pk and he would punish me badly. After that day it really opened my eyes on what I need to do. Now, I start doing moves to see what my opponent does, if I notice that my opponent always evades after eating a stagger-elbow, then I'll punish fail-evade for example.

* If you opponent is abusing a move that keeps defeating you how do you go about keeping a clear mind, staying focused to find the answer before calling foul, complaining or quitting?
Haha! Easy, when my opponent pisses me off I piss him off, it's as simple as that!

* If your opponent is always evading your attacks do you pay attention to something as simple as to which side of the screen they keep evading too and applying an answer to disrupt their flow?
Yes! A few months ago I decided on learning Jeffry's half circular directions, if I notice someone always evades to my back I will try and set-up kenka hooks when possible, or if my opponent is smarter and goes to my body, I use other moves like the half-circ low or K. If my opponent is totally random, then I'm random and I throw out either ones or just a full circular.

* Do you pay attention to whether or not your opponent likes to tech roll or stay grounded?
Well, we played a few days ago, I noticed that you don't tech roll so after my combos I added a heavy pounce to add some more damage! Then when you mix it up it becomes tricky, my point though is yes, I do pay attention on whether or not they tech roll all the time or not.

* Is your opponent a fan of rising attacks or not?
If my opponent always does rising attack, I like to do + to interrupt, or I like to bait it and then back away and attack as he whiffs his rising attack. If he doesn't do a rising attack I like to dash in and throw or just utilize oki in general.

* Do you use Dojo mode or is all of your training solely based on Quest mode or Online play?
I play a lot of Dojo mode. I like to practice ETEG for a while, fuzzy, Crouch dash fuzzy and combos. Also I like to set the cpu at the highest level and play it for a good while.

* Do you prefer to mimic a style (say favorite Japanese player) or come up with your own unique one?
Well, Magnum and Highkick are my role models so I have stolen a lot of stuff from Japanese guys, but I wouldn't say I want to actually copy everything from them. I want to be known as Kamais_Ookin, not Magnum-beta!

These questions were not weird at all, thanks for your time!

 

Sarcasm is lost in forums i guess.. But when somebody says something like this its because they mean it.

 

Isn't it about Po time anyway? Come on Master, I need you to tell me how I should play like water streaming out the butt of a five assed monkey.

 

17 degrees

 

this thread is degenerating very quickly!


(i realize i am adding nothing by this post )

 

Regenerate! This thread is very cool. I haven't thought everything over enough to post more than my angle.

 

Virtua Fighter is all about mind-fucking your opponent. That's what I love best about the game. If your opponent can't be mind-fucked because he's not into using his mind for the five or so matches you've already bombarded him with KOs or ROs, then, yes, the game's fun factor is to degenerate very quickly with that particular opponent.

Just my 2 cents.