Who Is Really Fast Enough To Play VF5?

Seriously, guys. All this talk of frame analysis and countering throws by pressing the last directional button and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. Who is really fast enough to be able to think about all of that stuff on the fly while in the thick of battle? I'm just wondering. I love the articles on frame analysis and I love the depth and beauty of this game. This is the first fighting game that I've cared about since Street Fighter II. But do you guys actually think about frames while you play and are you fast enough to t execute reversals and throw evades on the fly?

 

That's where yomi skills come in. You also memorize what disadvantages your main moves come in, so you know how to defend, like if it -4 fuzzy, -9 ETEG, guard, or TE. Things like that.

The one thing in VF that I think requires to much execution is some of the multiple throw escapes are ETEG-type crap, that's it, and at least those have drawbacks.

 

The simple answer is anyone is fast enough to play and all of those techniques you asked about are used. It just takes time and practice. Studying each and every aspect of the game. Its not a game where a button mashing panda and hell spawn can win.

 

The secret to throw escapes and reversals is to understand when to use them. In almost all cases you use them after your previous move has been blocked. Provided you can see you've just been blocked - there is enough of a pause at this point to input escapes and/or reversals. It's not as hard as you think to be fast enough at this point.

Learn to watch what just happened and respond based on what you expect your opponent to do next. Pay attention during the fight - if your opponent has been attacking after they block your move, appropriate responses would be to block, evade, or reverse. The frames guide exists so you can teach your self the most damaging responses to specific attacks or how to save yourself after you've been blocked or evaded.

 

The frames info lets you know what's possible and what's not. You then remember the situations, not the numbers. You become conditioned for what to do when, versus calling frames to mind in the heat of battle.

For example, if I whiff Pai's 9k+g,k move, I know my opponent has 20 frames in which to hit me or throw me before I can attack or guard. I don't think of the frames info when I whiff it in battle; I simply know, "must mash throw escapes!"

I try to keep in mind which throw escapes I want to use against which character as soon as I know who I am fighting, so I don't have to think about it at the time. You simply become conditioned properly based on the frame info you read earlier. (If you see a ninja and no high walls, always break backwards.)

If after my opponent misses a move, I go for a throw and he punches me first, I can go look at the frame list later and see if he is guaranteed that punch in that situation, or if I was simply too slow to act on his whiff. Then I know from there forward what to do in that situation.

The SAME THING was happening in SF2; you just knew it situationally versus in raw numbers. Every game runs on a clock, and that clock dictates how long to freeze you up after you do a move. You whiffed your big shoryuken and you don't even bother mashing, because you know that the following move/throw is guaranteed to hit you. There is an exact amount of time you are vulnerable for, just like in VF; you just weren't reading about it. You just knew "he can shove this move in after I miss this move." It's really the exact same thing, only VF is documented.

 

Yo dude, I do it all the time, and I'm a low (very low)
ranked player in my dojo /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif

 

Plaque explained the 'secret' of throw escapes perfectly in his post. Good players do not react to being thrown with a throw escape, they react to a particular situation with buffered throw escapes. And they know few fractions of a second in advance they are going to end up in that situation. Throw escapes are more like an automated defense routine.

About frames, we dont think about frames when we are playing as such, rather we look at frame stats in advance to think of possible situations and our options in that situation. Such as, if this move of mine gets blocked, what can opponent do? How can I prevent those options? In a given situation, the idea is to narrow our list of effective options down to just a few, so we can make that small choice on the fly quickly. As you get more game experience in versus, you get inherent knowledge of all the situations and develop your own way of dealing with them with your character. Naturally, different characters have different options, and it helps learning all the possibilities if you concentrate on one or two characters and train just those ^^

 

Guys, I'm overwhelmed by the quality of those responses. This is the exact feedback that I was looking for. Thank you so much for putting so much thought into your replies.

I've noticed that my playing style has changed a lot. At first it was the usual try-all-the-combos BS. But what I've noticed is that now I'm sticking to basic punches and kicks and I'm focusing more on what my opponent is doing. I'm using the guard button more. You guys are right. This is not a button-mashing game. This is a strategy game where reflexes are a plus. Definitely one of the best and most rewarding games that I've played in a long time.

 

It's awesome when realize this about VF, there's just so much in there to learn, practice and try out that the game is just awesome...

I bought SC4 the day it came out and it's just painfully obvious that much less thought went into how the game would played and what would be exploited. I find playing SC4 just frustrating compared to VF5. It doesn't have enough defensive options or reproducible situations when you side-step moves. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't...

I'm not really liking SC4 much at the moment. I hope I can find more depth in the game but it will NEVER, EVER be VF5...

 

I thought I will never be capable of pulling off Goh's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif Sabaki to really deflect a mid punch, but after countless hours of playing, I memorized some attack patterns, and I was rarely able to time it right.
With an increased amount of games, I was getting better, and also throw escapes worked more often.

It's a matter of time until you get good in Virtua Fighter. You can't reverse/sabaki/escape everything of course, but you learn to make the best of the situations you're in.

That's what makes VF so much fun to play.

I still make mistakes (using the wrong attacks after evading or after a stagger for example), but when I get some advanced stuff right, it gives me that "HomeStay-Moment", and that is some kind of a reward. And you keep playing.

 

Well, the advice i would give on how to/when to has already been given. Truly excellent feedback i agree. I would also like to point out though, that many of the skills/tools u need to build as progressively as u might think (in my experience). U DO HAVE TO GO TO DOJO AND PRACTICE THROW ESCAPES AND EVADE THROW ESCAPES if u plan to come strong with them. Most of this practice will show very little rewards and may even cause u to play worse as u begin to eat throw u would normally have attacked thru. Then, in my experience, the improvement to ur game comes dramatically and almost all at once. For me there was no build up. I sucked at escapes. Practiced very hard. sucked, sucked, sucked. Then, i was one of the more difficult players to throw overnight and got ggs-excellent escapes all the time on messages. Then i took a break, remapped my controller, and suck again. But just know all that hard work that doesn't seem to pay off may just 'click' all at once. hope this helps keep u motivated.

 

Here's something else to keep in mind: frame data is just a way to break the game down mathematically.
You could go off of feelings and instincts and still be a good player like DaBadSeed and other players or you could learn frame data and be absolutely sure of what advantage/disadvantage you're in.

You don't have to be a whiz at math either bc it's simple mathematics that will tell you that if your opponent is at -12 and your fastest move is 11 frames then you're better off doing that move and getting guaranteed damage OR going for a throw (which is is 12 frames) if your opponent is not good at throw escapes.
There are plenty of other things that you can do in that scenario but that's the most basic approach. You can expand from there and go for other options but getting the basics down is the first hurdle in playing the game better.
One of the reasons that I could not grow as a player was my lack of fundamentals. I've been playing VF for a while but since I never bothered to learn basics and fundamentals I'm basically a baby in VF skills. I'm still working on it but understanding VF's basics a little better (thanks to Chief Flash and Srider's vids /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif ) can help you reach the level of play that you asked about.

 

I'm with Tony. I also think that there are two different types of players in Virtua Fighter (and this also applies to some of my other hobbies, like squash and dancing):

Some players have an "intuitive" sense of what they need to do and how. They are basically applying what some of us only learn by reading the frames, but they don't think of it in terms of "I just whiffed this move, opponents best move is a throw, I better use throw escape". They just intuitively know what to do.

Other players, like myself, require a more technical learning process. Like Plague said, we don't think in terms of the frames when we're playing, but by reading about frames beforehand, we do have the ability to understand the how and the why behind what is happening in the game.

Ultimately, Virtua Fighter is not about speed - it's about knowing and understanding your opponent, and your best options at any point, given that information.

 

Once again, great feedback, guys. I'm printing this stuff. It's exciting to find a forum full of people who have put thought into what they are saying. social_ruin, I like what you said about things just "clicking." My dad used to say that about tennis. He said that you can think about tennis or you can enjoy tennis. If you think about what you are doing, you are sketchy and you don't move well. However, you gain insight from analyzing every little thing. Then, when you let go and just enjoy tennis, you have a flow and all of the thinking pays off because at this point it has developed your intuition for the game.

 

You don't but if you know you opponent then it helps you alot along the way. When your at a slight disavantages you have no other choice but to input throw escapes quickly before your able to move again(Against a good opponent atleast.). I switch the input according to character im facing. Most of the time i rather punish with a PK to see what i can make my opponent do after the connect.Some Guard,Some Evade,Some attack.

But on a real note. If the game is moving to fast and im on the recieveing end of a ass whupping i'll slow the game down. I slow down on tech rolls here and there just to stop my opponents flow.

 

SDS_Overfiend1's advice is really good too. I've noticed that some people are excellent Brad players, and can really keep the pressure on, but when you slow things down and break their rhythm apart, they can really get thrown off and start to freeze up or or become more defensive (generally a good thing, I would say).

Really good players are effective at constantly putting you in situations where you have to make a decision very quickly, with very little time to think in between each decision.

On the note of throw escapes specifically, I would say that a good place to start with this is when you've missed a pounce. It usually becomes obviously fairly early on that you've boned yourself with a late pounce, and your opponent has risen and is just waiting for you. Take this time to input some throw escapes and go from there.

 

2 excellent points sushi. make brad "initiate" his offense as much as possible. try not to play at a pace that allows him to duck, sway, dip, oke his way to one long combo excellent. i couldnt agree with u more. also missed pounces r an excellent place to cut ur teeth on escapes. easy to do, builds confidence, and inspires u 2 go into the dojo and practice. we are definitely playing the same game. doesnt a well-timed escape make u feel like a badass?

 

Whateva you do you, You do not let Brad start his offense. Thats would be your downfall. Technically brad his one three best offensed aside from Lei Fei and Jacky.

 

good stuff.

 

i asked myself the same thing recently.