who wins?

Wow...the famous/infamous (depending on who i talk to) Brian! Damn, legend has it that you've driven a number of players pretty much insane (OmahaJeffrey also comes to mind) with your Aoi. I wish we can meet and play someday...

<font color=red>ORA! ORA! ORA!</font color=red>

<font color=white>adam</font color=white><font color=red>YUKI</font color=red>

 

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

imho:

I've gotta say, in OB, Jacky's the strongest char, while Aoi comes in around #11 (with only Taka being weaker, mainly due to his
hit-into-guaranteed-throw subceptability weakness in OB).

Ofcourse, when the person playing a character is skilled anough, any and all of the chars can be very strong... but in the end, at the
highest level of play, she just doesn't cut it. (can't say about TB)

<hr></blockquote>

she gets worse in tb, although the top characters get worse as well since, in general, they had the worst abuse moves in ob. basically, it means she ends up near the bottom again. i agree with your assessment that the gap isn't so bad that a person skilled enough can be strong with any of the characters.


// clopin
join #vfhome on the EFnet IRC network

 

see, i'd say it's that highest level of play where the equality of the characters becomes apparent

as for tb, i vaguely (two and a half years now, ya know) remember a ground throw not being guaranteed in a situation where it once was, but there's really not that much difference with her

 

hee hee...yes, sorry to OJ. wonder who else i've driven insane...

i'm afraid even if we met, i wouldn't be much of a challenge anymore

...

but who knows

 

doh...sorry...that anonymous winker was me (duh, i guess)

 

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

see, i'd say it's that highest level of play where the equality of the characters becomes apparent

as for tb, i vaguely (two and a half years now, ya know) remember a ground throw not being guaranteed in a situation where it once
was, but there's really not that much difference with her

<hr></blockquote>

there is a world of difference. some character specific, like her canned knee and double elbow changes, to the more global changes, (e.g. struggling making phoenix palm useless). and no, i'm not going to list them all because it's already been done, either in this forum or other ones.


// clopin
join #vfhome on the EFnet IRC network

 

vfhome?

clopin:join vfhome? how? what's the address?
thanks
uk kid

 

Re: vfhome?

#vfhome is an IRC address. To "join" just get a
program like MIRC and then connect to an efnet
server. Type in #vfhome and go to town.

GE

 

As far as i know , Taka won the first java tea tournament...

 

The nutty thing about Clopins post is that, it IS true that at some point the characters qualities come into play. Jacky is stronger than say Taka or Wolf technically. Jacky if played boring will almost always win against either character. According to hiro "if jacky uses ppp (completely uncounterable by wolf), then wolf cannot do anything. Just watch that seguru_sam match. ppp galore, I tried it too...boy its true...Of course the player is the most important element. But charcter differences contribute greatly. Jacky against excellent players is very hard to use to win. Jacky is very limited once you learn how to block extremely well, you take away his main weapons. The problem with him is the limited movement. You play tricking games and throw escaping games alot. You need it to survive.

 

According to hiro "if jacky uses ppp (completely uncounterable by wolf), then wolf cannot do anything

except lowkick under them or dodge the last punch in the series.


Jacky is very limited once you learn how to block extremely well, you take away his main weapons.

Isn't this true for any character? Once I learn to block at
a high level doesn't that automatically reduce any opponent's
(playing any character) options? making them create strategy
and traps and such.

In the end that's what really begins to create "high end" play
because you'll have two excellent players who don't fall for
stupid stuff, remain standing for the most part and escape
a lot of throws. To defeat them you need to create situations
that they can't read as easily, lead them into unorthodox throw
traps...always jockying for position and initiative.


Especially at "high end" play where winning becomes the main
impetus to playing. There is the gradual erradication of
move sets, boiling down to what is safe and uncounterable.
This requires that excellent blocking ability and necessarily
dictates the style of play be one of more games, yomi and
timing.

GE

 

Actually it is still completely uncounterable by Wolf. the only thing Wolf can do is defend, if jacky does pp elbow it will beat low kick, if jacky does pp, d+k then d+k will beat wolf's d+k. with Pai or say lau if ppp is defended wolf can grab, against jacky you cant throw him. Dodging p may be possible but it is very hard. If jacky does pp or ppp, backstep, then it is very hard to beat jacky players.

 

read the fucking post. and go back and read your own fucking post. the point was, dipshit, not about PPd+K, not about PPf+P, not about what jacky may or may not do. the point was about PPP.

PPP can be dodged.
PPP can be ducked under and thrown.
PPP can be low kicked.
PPP can be interrupted by numerous moves - mid, high and low, from wolf.

et-fucking-cetera.

you said nothing about what jacky *could* do with Px strings. you said that PPP is hard to beat.

it is not.

--
"A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"

 

Hi Hiro!

--
"A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"

 

Cheap Ass Jacky, apparently

Hello anonymous,

I'm trying to follow your logic here.

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

the only thing Wolf can do is defend

<hr></blockquote>



Right, ok, so now I've got a Wolf player holding guard and a Jerky player slamming PPP like a newbie, ok...so far so good.

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

if jacky does pp, d+k then d+k will beat wolf's d+k.

<hr></blockquote>

Why would the Jerky player do this? He's currently hammed-up confident that he can win exclusively with PPP, right? What's he trying to do? Yomi Wolf's low-kick attempt? Whatever. So, now we have a Wolf player defending and a Jacky player doing PPd+K. Well, if the Wolf player has any skill whatsoever, he will likely block the low-kick. Aha, uh oh, I think it's low throw time!

Yes, yes, "but super jacky player can do dodge-low-throw-escape-buffered-kickflip-double-punch-attack-guard-super-technique-cancel!" but the point of the matter is not that we could go on and on about what each character *could* do in any situation and come up with ridiculous flow charts, etc. the point is, if Jacky does a PPd+K against a blocking Wolf, he's SOL.

And lastly,

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

If jacky does pp or ppp, backstep, then it is very hard to beat jacky players.

<hr></blockquote>

yeah, well, if a Jacky player chooses to do this, then he won't have very many friends and will likely be ridiculed for having no skill whatsoever and others may even try to pound him one in real life because he was being such a fruitcake while playing VF.

cheers,



<font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>

 

Hey Brian don't suppose you'd be willing to converse with an aspiring Aoi player would you? email address?

 

You just made my point stronger! ppp is what you start with, Go watch the sam_seguru match. Supposedly the best jacky player in Japan vs a wolf player, He uses ppp alot. if the last punch is slightly delayed then ppp can be made uncounterable, if you see lowkick you hit l+k if you see dodge you can elbow, but it is so incredibly hard to react correctly that jacky always has the advantage after ppp. The point also is that after ppp is blocked, it is uncounterable. This is a fact.

CrewNYC

 

Also to append this post, ppp is so fast that no one in there right mind would do low kick. You simply cant react fast enough. It is uncounterable against wolf.

 

Also to append this post, ppp is so fast that no one in there right mind would do low kick. You simply cant react fast enough. It is uncounterable against wolf.

I'm afraid I must take exception here. I've gotten quite used to
a PPP rush and have (as a very conscious choice, mind you, not
luck) inputted my Giant Swing in order to take advantage of the
ducking frames and gotten my throw as well as avoiding the PPP
jam. I might still have it on tape. If I can find it I will
post it.

That said. I totally believe that it is uncounterable and that
it can only make life miserable for a Wolf player but I think
that in all practicality that both sides of this coin are
equally weighted.

Against a Jacky who utilizes PPP with good proper timing a Wolf
would find himself is trouble. You can, however react to
PPP (in OB, Yupa would dodge the last punch in that series and
this is when I played mostly Sarah) and if that's all they do
then unless it hits, the Jacky can find himself in an uncomfortable
situation. moreover, in the same manner that you are right that
it is hard to react (but not impossible) to PPP so would it be
hard to delay that last Punch, looking for an alteration in
the opponent Wolf's defensive pattern. Anything that was inputted
around the same time as the delay in the punch (even a throw)
would spell interrupt for that Jacky.

As I've said, I believe the argument is too evenly weighted to
be anything more than just that. An Argument. There's always
going to be "what ifs" and "but thens" just as there is
always going to be the cold fact of uncounterability.

I guess, anyway.


GE

 

>You just made my point stronger!

i did? is there some distortion in time and space and the laws of physics and physics of VF play that i'm not aware of?

you said: "if jacky uses ppp (completely uncounterable by wolf), then wolf cannot do anything".

i then refuted this statement by putting forth "facts" that even most scrubs know (interruptable, low kicks, etc).

my argument is not about flowcharting. it's not about what jacky could do if a certain situation is presented. it's about that one statement, which to me is so astoundingly ridiculous. PPP - P, P, P - the pressing of the Punch button three times in rapid succession does NOT render wolf null and void.

--
"A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"