Who's the strongest, Part 2

Discussion in 'General' started by ice-9, Jul 2, 2000.

  1. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Last night I decided to start learning Bass. This guy...is EASY to learn! I went through the KBcat's movelist and Chi Crew's combo FAQ in Sparring Mode and then I played through Time Attack. After, I felt like I had already achieved a proficient level with the big guy.

    However, I will concur with Emil that Bass is much stronger than I initially thought. I think my misperceptions lay in that my competition hadn't really used him to maximize his strengths. But he is definitely strong. Bass is a combination of Tina, Helena, and Zack combined. Thankfully, since I've played with those characters, learning Bass was much, much easier. It was only a matter of recognizing what properties his moves have.

    The learning curve was so short that I pulled out Leon right afterwards. I still think Leon is strong, but he seems to be a slightly different animal than all the other characters. For one, his biggest strength is staggering opponents. He has many attacks that restagger and he can always cash out with a QCB+P combo that takes nearly 40% alone. Leon is strong, but I don't think I have a good feel for him yet.

    This means that as of today, the only character I don't play is Kasumi. /images/icons/wink.gif There's no question she's top tier! So, in any case, here are my tier rankings one more time.

    TIER 1: Gen Fu, Lei Fang, Jann Lee, Kasumi
    TIER 2: Hayabusa, Ein, Leon
    TIER 3: Bass, Tina, Helena, Zack
    TIER 4: Ayane

    Thoughts? Disagreements? In my mind, there is no question Ayane is the weakest... /images/icons/frown.gif

    ice-9
     
  2. Emil

    Emil Well-Known Member

    Have you experimented with Bass's d/f+S+P throw. It is along the lines of Jann Lee's f+S+P but not quite as dangerous.

    d/f+S+P---------throw/lowthrow
    |
    |
    |
    ---------d/f,d/f+p or f,f+k or whatever

    I don't think anything is guaranteed after the headbutt but there is a tangible advantage.

    "Bass is a combination of Tina, Helena, and Zack combined."

    Comparing Bass and Tina or Zack is reasonable but Bass and Helena?
    I am having trouble figuring how Bass is similar to Helena.

    TIER 1: Gen Fu, Lei Fang, Jann Lee, Kasumi
    TIER 2: Hayabusa, Ein, Leon
    TIER 3: Bass, Tina, Helena, Zack
    TIER 4: Ayane

    My spidey sense tells me that Hayabusa should be top tier instead of Lei Fang.
    His Izuna drops and speed should make him top tier. I also think Bass should be 2nd tier. He is easy to use and can dish out a lot a damage in no time at all.

    -Emil
    Bass for 2nd Tier!
     
  3. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Re: Bass and Zack?

    "Bass is a combination of Tina, Helena, and Zack combined."

    Comparing Bass and Tina or Zack is reasonable but Bass and Helena?
    I am having trouble figuring how Bass is similar to Helena.


    I'm having trouble working out why both of you think Zack is similar to Bass?

    Zack has speed, ability to mix attack levels, and relies primarily on high-hit combos to dish out the damage.

    Bass lacks speed, no ability to mix attack levels (to the level Zack can), and relies either on simple power combos, or his throws to dish out the damage.

    I have nothing to add to the whole "who's the strongest" discussion simply because there's no scene here. Opinions on character strengths are usually subjective, often being a result of what's seen and experienced in one's local scene. So, I'm eager to know how and why the above observation about Bass was made.

    __
    m y k e
    how ya gonna win when ya ain't right within?
     
  4. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Emil, Bass' d/f+P+S is not a catch throw right? I haven't been doing much, simply because--frankly speaking--the DOA2 engine rewards guaranteed damage too much. I have discussed with Adam once on the issue of Akira and Adam's choice of usually going for guaranteed damage.

    In DOA2, almost every single juncture of the game can be distilled into the rocks-papers-scissors guessing game. Meaning, if command input wasn't an issue, why go for a d/f+P+S and be subject to a rocks-papers-scissors guessing game when you can go for a D,f,b+P+S and subject the opponent to an okizeme guessing game?

    As for Lei Fang vs Hayabusa -- Lei Fang gets the edge for her 0 parry reversals. Lei Fang herself is no stranger to high damage throws and 40-50% combos, but her parries make the difference.

    I'll explain the Bass similarities in response to Myke's post.

    ice-9
     
  5. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: Bass and Zack?

    Here's why. I have a very simple concept for DOA2. I distill each character into his or her primary guessing game. For some characters it's not so cut and dried, but for many, it comes down to a simple 50-50 offensive game. Everything else is icing on the cake that complements this core strategy. It's a lot like how I recommend playing Wolf: GS or SS.

    For Zack, he has his throw or his d/f,d/f K. His rising knee is his main combo starter and the easiest way for him to inflict heavy damage. Note the option of using Zack's follow up K in his d/f,d/f K,K. This, of course, is analogous to Bass' throw and d/f,d/f P guessing game. Also note that his d/f,d/f P has a canned P afterwards that you can use to help put the guessing game to your advantage. That, and the fact that both moves are primarily medium to long distance, and you have very valid parallels between the two.

    For Helena, I have her guessing game as throw and f P stagger. Helena can inflict heavy damage from an opponent in back stun, and even if not, the opportunity presents Helena a fantastic opportunity. Now take a look at Bass. His elbow, f P, also produces a similar stagger, producing similar opportunities. Need I mention they both have canned Ps after the elbows?

    I don't, of course, need to articulate the similarities between Bass and Tina.

    So in short, Bass takes the core competency of Zack, Helena, and Tina altogether in one. THAT is why this big guy is very strong. Unfortunately, the big guy is also very slow. His elbow is not as fast as Helena's. He does not duck underneath during d/f,d/f P as much as Zack's rising knee. His combos are more unreliable than Tina's. And he doesn't have very many moves.

    ice-9

    Does anyone notice how some times my pluses don't appear?
     
  6. Emil

    Emil Well-Known Member

    I don't agree with your opinion about Bass's d/f+S+P.

    "why go for a d/f+P+S and be subject to a rocks-papers-scissors guessing game when you can go for a D,f,b+P+S and subject the opponent to an okizeme guessing game?"

    After d/f+S+P it is the victim that is subjected to a guessing game not Bass.
    Bass has the advantage which he can do whatever he wants with. Bass can even choose not to guess. eg back dash

    "In DOA2, almost every single juncture of the game can be distilled into the rocks-papers-scissors guessing game. Meaning, if command input wasn't an issue..."

    You wrote yesterday:

    "According to Hiro, Chibita once remarked that Lion has many attacks that are throw counterable that would make Lion appear weak on paper, but because humans are not perfect, they often miss these chances are try to go after them after a slight delay. This is why Lion is stronger than most give the character credit for."

    Command input is an issue. In a pinch hcf+S+P and d/f+S+P are more practical choices for throws than D,f,b+S+P. If you had flawless input D,f,b+S+P is almost always the best choice.

    d/f+S+P is a fun throw which leads to an interesting situation even if nothing is guaranteed. Bass has an advantage that can lead to more damage than D,f,b+S+P.(if you guess right!)

    -Emil
     
  7. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Re: Bass and Zack?

    OK I see the similarities between the float/followup/throw guessing game but doesn't everyone have that to some degree? I'm sure all, if not most, characters have some canned combo with which they can play the same guessing game, with the threat of the canned attack (which may or may not stun, stagger or float), or throw, as followup.

    My Zack's primary guessing game is not his rising knee, df,df+K, and I'm not one for 50/50 guessing games anyway.. those odds aren't favourable enough :) Survival mode on max difficulty forces you to switch up constantly, so I never fall in the habit of having a fixed offensive. Instead, I try to work around critical hits, staggers, and so on, before I bust out the rising knees for a float. I pretty much do that with most characters I play.

    For Zack, I primarily use flowcharts starting off the d+K,P, the P,P and the f+P. All levels are covered, and all have decent potentials for followups. Crouch dash guessing games with the rising knee/throw, are effective, but don't seem to work against attack-happy opponents that I used to play against in the arcade.

    I noticed your pluses, though mine seem to be fine?

    __
    m y k e
    how ya gonna win when ya ain't right within?
     
  8. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    After d/f+S+P it is the victim that is subjected to a guessing game not Bass.
    Bass has the advantage which he can do whatever he wants with. Bass can even choose not to guess. eg back dash


    But it's exactly the same with okizeme. I mean, think about it.

    If you're the defender, and you've been d/f+P+S, what can you do? 3 defensive holds (mid kick, mid punch, low) if you want to risk inflicting damage or an attack if you think the Bass will throw you. Those are 4 choices, each which will allow the defender to inflict damage. Or if you want to play safe, you can block high, low, or attack. That's three options, with a personal recommendation from me to block high or attack (Bass doesn't have any good attacks). Or you can simply go for 3 defensive holds, mid-kick, mid-punch, and low for attempted throw on Bass' part. Those are not bad options for the opponent.

    Think of Bass after the d/f+P+S. He can d/f,d/f+P for half life combo, or he can throw afterwards. It's 50-50. If you take a summed average, that's about 100 pts damage + d/f+P+S damage for about 150 pts.

    Now let's assume Bass went for a D,f,b+P+S when he could instead go for d/f+P+S. He goes for okizeme and could go for mid-kick reversal or low kick reversal.

    Crap, I gotta go to work, I'll finish this later...

    ice-9
     
  9. Emil

    Emil Well-Known Member

    "Now let's assume Bass went for a D,f,b+P+S when he could instead go for d/f+P+S. He goes for okizeme and could go for mid-kick reversal or low kick reversal."

    I find rising kicks a little bit hazardous to reverse. If you reverse your downed opponent can just get up without a rising kick and high counter throw you.

    Maybe we should just agree to disagree.

    -Emil
     
  10. Page

    Page Member

    Ayene? Last? I not thinking so!

    She deserves to be higher, at least second tier. Put Helena lower, because I now realize that she probably isn't as strong as I think. Plus I suck with her(sad because she's my best character.). But the point is that Ayane has easy, high damage combos. She has speed. She even has a fun factor with her (BT)u/b+p bowlshit!

    C'mon, she combines everything that makes Kasumi powerful with a little Hayabusa mixed in for measure. The only thing she really lacks are throws.

    -Page-
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Ayane is top tier, imho.

    she is the strongest mid range player in the game for the following reason:

    -one of the best sidekick in the game; fast, not counterable, good reach.
    -the best sidekick counter in the game; the combo afterward add to 100+ dmg w/o the wall.
    -b+p, ff+p, f+p all goes under oppt's high attack, given enough distance.(especially b+p, which goes under mid as well) All of them setup a easy combo for around 70 on counter hits. ff+p and f+p both initialize counter situation.
    -b+P+F throw, the only throw boring/cut-throat ayane ever use. gurantted combo for around 80.

    Her main flow is f+p / b+P+F throw for beginner, which is nasty enough for the most part.

    Her main weakness is at close range, her punch isn't all that great and f+p takes too long to come out.Though her low punch is excellent which helps a bit.

    She can be flashy but also can be extremely boring(imaging lowp,f+p,b+p,b+PF all day long [sounds like kage heheh]), if the player choose to be so.

    -Sumeragi
    btw. though i am not sure this info is entirely correct, a ayane player won the tecmo tourney in japan (according to my friends...), the finalists consist of roughly 30%kasumi, 30% ayane, no bass or tina or leon.
     
  12. Emil

    Emil Well-Known Member

    Hey Sumeragi, where have you been? You used to be a messageboard regular.
    Are you gonna be at NYG2?
    Are you into DOA2?

    -Emil
     
  13. Emil

    Emil Well-Known Member

    "Ayene? Last? I not thinking so!"

    Sounds like something Jar Jar Binks would say.

    "Plus I suck with her(Helena)"
    LIAR!!!!!!

    I will give your Leon and Bass credit for being really awful but not your Helena.

    -Emil
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Well... being out of vf for awhile.
    no one to play with so my interest lvl deteriorated.

    Same thing with DOA2, i have not play with human until last weekend (july4th). Really can't say that i am into it, i know the moves that is about it (and not every character...) . ^^;

    -Mike Chuang
     
  15. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Aight, here's my beef with Ayane. If you think about it, almost every useful move she has is throw counterable. f+P,P. BK d+P. f,f+P. BK K+S. b+P. d/f+P,b+P. Moreover, she is heavily dependent on back attacks, which are not good because they don't let her take significant damage (with the exception of d+P and u/b+P combos) and because you can't reverse from the back and because you're more prone to staggers. Her spinning attacks are not that useful since every option is throw-counterable and because they don't take that much damage in the first place. If you think about other characters, most of them have high damage offense that is relatively "safe." Considering how command throws are not escapable, I'd say being throw counterable is a big liability.

    I thought she was strong mainly because of her mid-kick reversal and because of her speed, but to me, the poor recovery time is enough to balance it out.

    If 30% of the winners in Japan are really Ayane, I wish someone well versed in the character would write a few paragraphs on how she is strong. With the exception of Acel, I know that none of you have seen me play DOA2. However, I do think I have a pretty good grasp of all the players, and to me, Ayane just seems lacking. For the record, she is also one of my most played characters.

    ice-9
     
  16. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Here's my updated tiering:

    1: Gen Fu, Kasumi, Lei Fang
    2: Jann Lee, Hayabusa, Ein
    3: Bass, Leon
    4: Tina, Zack
    5: Helena
    6: Ayane

    ice-9
     
  17. Emil

    Emil Well-Known Member

    1: Gen Fu, Kasumi, Lei Fang
    2: Jann Lee, Hayabusa, Ein
    3: Bass, Leon
    4: Tina, Zack
    5: Helena
    6: Ayane

    Kinda funny how the whole top tier consists of every character with zero damage holds.

    -Emil
     
  18. Guest

    Guest Guest

    i don't find that funny at all. that's been one of my major gripes with the move sets from the beginning. :(



    :: Wind-X :: DoAON :: http://doaonline.fighters.net
     
  19. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Re: Zero damage holds

    What's even worse is that both high and mids are parried with the same damn input. What's up with that?

    __
    m y k e
    how ya gonna win when ya ain't right within?
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Zero damage holds

    that's exactly what bothers me about them. one hold kills high attacks and both mid punches and kicks. yeah, it does no damage, but that's just a little too convenient. it's always bothered me that those characters could shut down a good 2/3 of all attacks with one hold...



    :: Wind-X :: DoAON :: http://doaonline.fighters.net
     

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