Who's the strongest?

Discussion in 'General' started by ice-9, Jun 16, 2000.

  1. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    This may be a little early, but since I'm in the process of learning characters, it would be really helpful/interesting to me, but how would you rank the characters?

    Here are mine, based on initial impressions. I have played Gen Fu and Hayabusa in depth and have only "lightly" played Lei Fang, Jann Lee, Ein and Ayane. I have never played the others, although I've sparred with them plenty with the CPU. /images/icons/wink.gif


    TOP TIER:

    Lei Fang -- She's got great attacks, fast with lots of mix ups. She has range and she has priority in certain key attacks. Her multi link throw is incredibly damaging if you can pull it off, and her QCB S P is decent. Best of all, she has her damn 0 parry damage with the nigh-guaranteed bodycheck follow up. This girl has everything, and that's why I vote her to be in the top tier.

    Gen Fu -- It's puzzling to me but a lot of players think Gen Fu is weak. Far from it; this old man is incredibly strong. Many of his mid punches stagger, and he has many options for launching the opponent into the air. He has a lot of really damaging float combos. He has a parry and his reversals take solid damage. Best of all, Gen Fu has TFT combos up the wazoo and BOY do they take damage.

    Ein -- A lot of high damage attacks with great priority and practically no recovery, Ein is pretty much another Jacky. He's got a lot of attacks that mix up well and his QCB S P and d/f,d/f S P throw takes good damage.


    SECOND TIER:

    Kasumi -- Lots of mix ups, great range with her kicks, fast attacks, parries, and a whole bag of tricks make Kasumi seem like a strong character. I actually considered putting her in the top tier but I hesitate as I feel I don't know her well enough to be so bold as to place her up there with the likes of Gen Fu and Lei Fang. /images/icons/wink.gif

    Leon -- When I first played the guy, I thought he was definitely top tier, but as I played the CPU more and more I've decided he wasn't as strong as I initially thought he was. However, he does have strings that lend very favorably to guessing games and he has a lot of high priority attacks that float and has range. He's quite fast considering he's a heavy weight.


    THIRD TIER:

    Helena -- Seems quite strong and she definitely has nice attacks but she seems a bit reliant on middle attacks to get heavy damage. High priority moves. I think her overbearing weakness is a lack of a really, really good throw. It seems to me that Helena on offense should constanty have throwing the opponent in the back of her mind, as a lot of her strings involve middle attacks. Unlike Gen Fu, however, she doesn't have a 140 point throw...

    Hayabusa -- He's a little weird in the sense that he seems powerful when you watch him but he doesn't feel powerful as you play him. Even though he's supposed to resemble Kage, unfortunately, Hayabusa's Izuna Drop isn't as deadly. 120 points on hi counter is the most damage Hayabusa can take in one time (without falling off, and it's not usually easy to get. His Izuna Drop combos are overrated as they don't take that much damage considering its difficulty compared to other characters' combos. His attacks seem to be low priority although he has some moves that make him go low before attacking, which could be nice.

    Jann Lee -- Harold says this guy is strong and I want to believe him but I don't see how yet. Jann can be fast, has super combos, but he seems awfully limited. From what I've seen based on the time I've spent with him, Jann doesn't seem to have a killer middle hit. And please don't mention his QCF K; what a retarded, useless move! /images/icons/crazy.gif


    FOURTH TIER:

    Ayane -- She's fast and confusing, but it seems a little difficult for her to take off a lot of damage without relying on her f P,P somehow. I've only played her twice though, so it's hard for me to say, but she seems very strong against a player who's not familiar with her but a bit lacking against someone who's familiar with her strings.

    Zack -- To be honest, I don't know much about this guy at all but boy is the CPU bad with Zack. However, I can tell that a lot of his strings would be very useful to set up guessing games.


    LOW TIER:

    Bass -- Bass seems soooo slow, and against the CPU at least (set on very hard) the multi link throws seem easy to escape.

    Tina -- I don't know anything about her; she seems to have potential even though the CPU doesn't show it. /images/icons/smile.gif

    ice-9
     
  2. akiralove

    akiralove Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    JTGC
    Like Jeff, I haven't really played at a high enough level to say, but here are a couple abservations anyway.

    I think one of the really interesting things about this game is that it doesn't really take the approach to character design that every fighting game I know of since SF has taken: characters should be basically be divided into types based on speed to power ratio, throwing and reversal ability, combo ability, size and weight, etc. In DOA, everybody more or less has everything! All characters can reverse EVERY move in the game. They all have several throws, at least one crouching throw, one rear crouching throw, at least on back throw, wall throws, and most have combo throws. the only types of moves that are exclusive are the no damage revs., combo reversals, combo low throws, combo wall throws, and TFT type moves(let me know if I forgot something).

    The differences seem to lie in more the types of attacks and their pace. I'm not really sure how to best express this now that I have to put it into words. It's as if they wanted to give each character all the options in any situation, so that the mind game is less about which attack you'll use, and more about what type; bringing the gameplay back to the simple Janken (rock,paper,scissors) style of play.

    I.E. if you block the opponent's low kick in VF, the guessing game revolves more around the character's abilities. Shun and Pai have no elbow, Wolf and Jeffry can use one of 4 low throws, Akira has a mid which was to be reversed high that chains into 50% damage. In DOA, the question isn't "which throw escape" or "should I escape/throw escape/guard or reverse/throw escape/guard" etc. It's blow,throw,or one of 4 (or 6) holds(some of which can be obviously ruled out in many situations). the reawrds for guessing correctly are usually substantial, and the commands are pretty easy. I once read an interview with team ninja where they said that the problem with Tekken was that it didn't have enough depth, and that the problem with VF was that it focused too much on defense (escape/throw escape/guard is a pretty complex defensive command, and gamest suggests doing this if the opponent merely guards kage's elbow). They said they wanted to make a game where the pace was offense,offense,offense. I think this is why there are no command throw escapes, and escaping with the effectiveness of VF is really pretty much too difficult to be useful at close range (as far as I can tell); they wanted to keep it simple: the real play lies not in the strengths or weaknesses of the characters, but in the quick repetition of the moment when you have to guess: paper, scissors or rock. And in that moment each character in DOA has a few of each.

    I feel like even if you break it down into style or move type, direct comparisons to VF reveal that the characters in DOA are pretty much hybrids of VF styles, combining the best of a couple characters. Gen Fu is a kind of Akira/Lau who looks like Shun (and even can play a little like him if you slow him down and use delay and mix up his strings). He has a lot of knife hand type movements which can lead to more hits like lau, yet his longest strings are only 3 hits, and he has a lot of power mids like akira. It'd be like doing a knife hand,P to float then body check. His B+p,F+P.P+K sounds exactly like the spod, and his d/f+k,f+p,b,f+p is more than a little reminiscent of akira and lau (too bad it comes out too slow to use in the air, and the damage is lame). His B+F+P even has the same name and basic animation as akira's d/b,f+p+g "shin iha". But he also has a killer low backfist, a respectable sweep, parrys, a TFT, and even a cute little kickflip!

    Tina is a sort of wolf/jacky (elbow,back fist,knee), who I think is actually pretty strong. Her giant swing works pretty well for me, and she has lote of good damage throws.

    Lei Fang seems to be somewhere between pai and again, akira with all her punch combos, palms and bodychecking.

    Oops, something came up and I have t finish this later, sorry.

    Spotlight
     
  3. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    the reawrds for guessing correctly are usually substantial, and the commands are pretty easy.

    It's one of the reasons why I originally stopped playing this in the arcades, and just waited for my DC version. I was getting sick of the excessive guessing games that DoA2 seemed to revolve around, and the games were expensive. Anyway, as spotlite mentioned, every character has everything, so you pretty much take the same skill and technique to every fight, irrespective of the character. This to me got boring after a while, and I was craving for the uniqueness in each matchup that VF3 offered.

    They said they wanted to make a game where the pace was offense,offense,offense.

    I think they [team ninja] certainly succeeded, and that's one of the aspects I find that I can enjoy. Sometimes I'll have fun playing high speed checkers (all the pieces being the same), and other times I'll enjoy a solid game of chess. That's how I see DoA2 and VF3 respectively.

    __
    m y k e
    how ya gonna win when ya ain't right within?
     
  4. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Harold says...

    Harold sent this to me via e-mail, and I think he wants me to have a go and try to post this....

    ---------------------


    Wazzzaaap, Jeff?

    Anyway, just read your post about not being able to find the strength in Jann
    Lee. Well... it all comes down to one obnoxious move: f+S+P

    I've attached a text file with a flow chart I wrote up. I tried posting it on
    the message board, but it kept on coming out all weird.

    Of course this is all just based on what I've seen and done. But I really do
    think that this makes him waaaay too strong.

    So am I going to see you in NY mid-August? It looks like Shota is pretty sure
    he can go.. and he's my ticket over there so... things look pretty good as
    far as that is concerned.

    Take it easy.

    Harold



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    <pre>starter: f+S+P
    |
    |
    +------------------- guaranteed hits
    | |
    | +------------+----------------------+
    | | | |
    | P,f+P QCF+P f+S+K
    | | |
    | +--------+-------------+ +--------+---------+
    | | | | | |
    | b+P stagger hits f+S+P f+K > f+P,d+K (combo) f+S+P
    |
    |
    +--------- b+P (doesn't combo, but staggers on any hit)
    | |
    | +----------+--------+
    | | | |
    | b+P (again) launcher f+S+P (Heh)
    |
    |
    +---------- f+S+P (only way to stop this is to do
    | low attack, low DH, or just crouch)
    |
    |
    +---------- db+S+P (Low throw against low DH or crouch)
    |
    |
    +---------- low DH (if they try low attack)
    </pre>

    About the f+S+P... reason it's so strong is that it eats up high
    and low attacks as long as Jann Lee has initiative. And after a
    f+S+P he has big time advantage.

    And there you have it. Everyone's a monster with him now. You
    could even dumb it down and just use b+P or f+S+P exclusively
    and still kill people within seconds.

    In fact... that's the simplified flow chart. Just do f+S+P if
    you think the opponent will try high/mid DH or high/mid attack.
    Do b+P the rest of the time.

    ice-9
     
  5. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: Harold says...

    Eek, this looks pretty strong. You're probably right--I just haven't experimented with Jann Lee enough yet. God knows how that f+S+P just seems to suck in attacks! I gotta try this out...

    ice-9
     
  6. Sudden_Death

    Sudden_Death Well-Known Member

    I gotta disagree on jeff's list of who's
    strongest. like i've been saying jann lee and ein
    are indeed the top "Jackys" (easy to win). once
    you get a decent human player, you'll soon find
    the horror that is p+K, and qcf+K (I cant beleive
    you called that move useless). trust me, you wont
    beleive how many times you will eat those moves.
    i wont write more, am afraid it'll desapear.


    <font color=red>PICCOLO</font color=red>
     
  7. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Well, it's been over 3 weeks since I started playing DOA2, and my theory on tier strength has changed a bit. Here are my impressions now:

    TIER 1: Gen Fu, Kasumi, Lei Fang, Jann Lee
    TIER 2: Ein, Hayabusa, Leon
    TIER 3: Ayane, Tina, Zack
    TIER 4: Bass, Helena

    Hayabusa can be really deadly once you get his Izuna reversals pat to perfection. Since getting HC damage is a timing issue, after a while, it starts to get pretty easy getting 120 pts of damage with Hayabusa.

    I decided to move Ein down a tier since, yes, although he is powerful, non-counterable death fists are annoying, his strings can get a bit predictable after a while and there is no easy way for him to take major damage.

    Jann Lee and Kasumi are up. After some competition from Acel, I've realized that these two characters can be powerhouses. Especially Jann Lee--he has a lot of really damaging combos. As for Kasumi...her parries, strings, and movement make her deadly.

    Is it just me, or is Helena weak?! Here throws aren't that great, most of her hits are middle, and aside from her f+P stagger combo, it's difficult for her to take off major damage. She's almost like an inferior Gen Fu. Anyway, I just started playing her today so maybe she has something that I'm missing.

    Ah well. Any thoughts?

    ice-9
     
  8. Sudden_Death

    Sudden_Death Well-Known Member

    cpu helena is hard for me to beat (on higher
    difficulty setting). i dont think she's weak, she
    could take chunks poking around.


    <font color=red>PICCOLO</font color=red>
     
  9. TripleRaid

    TripleRaid Active Member

    Re: Harold says...

    Who! Thanks man. that is great! /images/icons/wink.gif That really does work.

    [​IMG] TripleRaid
     
  10. Nutlog

    Nutlog Well-Known Member

    I just say you should be messing with Tina some more, Ice. You would see that she should be in that second tier. She has several nice staggers, some with great range and priority (d/f,d/f+K), a nice catch throw and great mind games from her irish whip throw (f,f throw). I can't count the number of times I've gotten free back throws because I've frozen up my opponents who try to immediately retaliate from the whip and get stuffed, so now they just sit there.

    Also with 3 multis that deal out over 90 points normally, she has incredible damage in throws, after you've conditioned your opponent. In fact this is how Rodney and I convinced the guys in omaha not to play on dreamcast mode. Every time they were staggered we'd go for the throw, and everytime we'd get a hi-counter because they were afraid of the continued stagger, so they reversed out.

    Note: Against Tina, just eat the combo. The risk of getting hi-countered out of the reversal is much worse. Her worst combos from a stagger deliver about 60 -70 points. ALL of her throws except the SE one will deliver that much or more on a hi-counter, some up to 130 points.
     
  11. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    I have been playing with Tina a lot and I actually like to play her!

    I just say you should be messing with Tina some more, Ice. You would see that she should be in that second tier. She has several nice staggers, some with great range and priority (d/f,d/f+K), a nice catch throw and great mind games from her irish whip throw (f,f throw).

    My problem with her d/f,d/f+K is that she is at a serious disadvantage if blocked. I think she's throw counterable afterwards, though I can't be sure. I love her catch throw, but it is escapable! As for her irish whip...I see it just like Jeffry's SE. Sure, it's nice for setting up guessing games, but against good players, it's difficult to get damage out of. In VF3, the SE is still useful since it's one more throw the player has to worry about, but in DOA2 why bother when there are so many other throws that are much more powerful and guaranteed damage?

    Also with 3 multis that deal out over 90 points normally, she has incredible damage in throws, after you've conditioned your opponent.

    I'm not sure what the third multi is (a back throw?), but her QCB and f,b multis take 105 pts normally! Nice, but again, still escapable. I like those throws a lot, but against a good player, if I have the opportunity, I would definitely go for her D,f,b throw for guaranteed 80 pt minimum damage.

    In fact this is how Rodney and I convinced the guys in omaha not to play on dreamcast mode. Every time they were staggered we'd go for the throw, and everytime we'd get a hi-counter because they were afraid of the continued stagger, so they reversed out.

    Definitely the core guessing game for Tina...

    Note: Against Tina, just eat the combo. The risk of getting hi-countered out of the reversal is much worse. Her worst combos from a stagger deliver about 60 -70 points. ALL of her throws except the SE one will deliver that much or more on a hi-counter, some up to 130 points.

    Never say never!

    I like Tina and I think used right she can be very powerful. But look at the other competition! You have Hayabusa that can take 120 pts on HC throw and combo potential past 90 pts. You have uncounterable, super string, decent throw Ein. You have Leon, who can do almost everything Tina can and better.

    In the third tier, Ayane is debatable. She is very, very strong in okizeme and in the right hands can be very deadly. But yes, she has a lot of weakness and perhaps belong in a lower tier. As for Zack--his throws are not as good as Tina's but his attacks are definitely much better. So it sorta balances out.

    If throws are escapable, then yes, I think Tina can be rated higher, but the fact of the matter is you only need one really good throw and every character has at least a 60 pt damage throw, which is already pretty good. In the right hands, Tina can beat anyone in the game, but still, compared to all the other characters, I can't help but see her as a mid to lower-tier character.

    ice-9
     
  12. Emil

    Emil Well-Known Member

    I don't think Bass should be 4th Tier.

    1. His throws are at least equal to Tina's.(if not better)
    D,f,b+S+P 80 damage
    qcf+S+P 70(?) damage
    d/f+S+P 40 damage- plus Bass has a bigtime frame advantage
    d/f,d/f+S+P 70 damage- I think this is the most damaging low throw in DOA2

    2. Bass has at least one good air combo.
    d/f+p(counter)- f+p - d/f,d/f+p - p+k - f+pk This does about 100 damage 130-140 with a high counter.
    The first 3 hits are mid punch but this works in Bass's favour. Giving Bass high counter throw opportunities is not a good idea.

    3. Bass also has some powerful staple attacks.
    f+p(p)
    f,f+k
    d/b+p
    f+k(p)
    d+S+K
    d/f,d/f+p
    d/f+pk(p)

    4. Bass is heavy! A lot of strong air combos won't work on him.

    Have a heart Ice. Put Bass in your 3rd tier.
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Harold says...

    I should mention that I got most of this stuff from talking with Emil. So he should get most of the credit (and flames once everyone starts playing Jann Lee like that. Heh heh.)
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Psst...here's a secret!

    You can throw Jannlee out of the animation during or after f+S+P...(its a hold)
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Psst...here's a secret!

    "You can throw Jann Lee out of the animation during or after f+S+P...(its a hold)"

    Jann - f+S+P
    Victim - Grab
    Jann - HI COUNTER WHAACHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Yeah. Rite.

    Have you actually tried doing it before you post this stuff?
    F.Y.I:
    There are a few ways to avoid/interrupt the f+S+P, and executing a throw is one of them. I know what I'm talking about here.
     
  17. Emil

    Emil Well-Known Member

    Re: Yeah. Rite.

    Have you actually tried doing it before you post this stuff?"
    F.Y.I:
    There are a few ways to avoid/interrupt the f+S+P, and executing a throw is one of them. I know what I'm talking about here"

    Your right about a normal throw interrupting f+s+p. It is one of the many ways of breaking out of multiple f+s+p's but it seems to be the most risky way of doing so. Ducking avoids f+s+p without risk of high counter. Low kick also avoids f+s+p.
     
  18. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Emil, I don't play Zack myself so I only judge Bass from my brief impressions of the way the CPU and other players play him. After I learn Jann Lee, Lei Fang, and Ein (characters I've played with before but never really bothered to learn strategies and combos), and Zack, Bass will be my next character.

    ice-9
     
  19. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: Harold says...

    Just a quick question -- you guys are sure the follow ups are guaranteed right? Does the f+P+S have to be counter or anything?

    Acel and a bunch of other people came over the other day and we tried it out for just a bit and it didn't seem guaranteed. However, I was just playing Jann Lee this morning and it seemed as though buffered quickly enough it does seem guaranteed.

    Anyway, what IS guaranteed is if you high reverse Jann Lee's unblockable kick, a back throw is guaranteed. We know this is true for at least medium to far distances.

    ice-9
     
  20. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Actually, heh heh, after Hayabusa, my best character in last night's session was with Tina. 16 wins!! Woo hoo! Still though, I do think my assessment of where Tina is tier-wise is accurate. She has a tough time defending and rely on her P and f+P.

    After more competitive play, however, I've decided that Ayane deserves to drop a tier. She has great okizeme, but a lot of her benefit vs cost ratio isn't just as attractive as other characters. She's a fast, flashy, and confusing character, but surprisingly, she's rather risky.

    ice-9
     

Share This Page