Why diss Vf3?

Discussion in 'The Vault' started by Happy_Friend, Oct 19, 2001.

  1. Happy_Friend

    Happy_Friend Well-Known Member

    Why do some people dislike vf3 and refer to the game as "souless"? I have played the game religiously for a couple years and I still think it is the most fun despite how old it looks and that it is hard to find anyone who will play me because of the skills I got after spending a year in Asia. I mean there is a way you can play the game and be kind of bitch like but this is only a small number of (Asian) players and the best players of all don't really play that way and win a lot more and with a lot more style than the people who know how to perfectly time the moves of a stagger everytime or back away, back away, back away from an attacking opponent.
     
  2. GeeseHoward

    GeeseHoward Active Member

    I wouldn't say that the game looks dated. There are a handful of games that arguably look better than Vf3 arcade, being Soul Calibur, TTT, DOA2, and even then VF3 has awesome backgrounds (Lau VF3, Jeffry Vf3, Jacky VF3) that these games don't.
    After playing a bit of Vf4, I don't think that VF3 will ever begin to tire for me due to the fact that VF4 is a totallydifferent game, and that in many ways Vf3 is better than 4.
    Keep at it - it's one of the best games of all time.
     
  3. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    People who played and loved VF3 now years later tend to think of it as less fun than the other VFs, as too serious. It's more of a general 'feel' thing.

    -VF3TB is so fair, it's almost TOO fair. Everyone got tweaked to death. There were literally hundreds of changes between VF3 OB and TB. So TB ends up being kind of uniform all over. I can't imagine why this should be considered a BAD thing, but it just feels like it is. I think maybe part of the fun of a fighting game is seeing the stuff that makes you go "jesus christ@!"... the stuff that's so nasty that you have to worry about it constantly if your opponent knows how to do it.
    It doesn't sound like fun, but it IS fun knowing there's some stuff your opponent can do to knock off half your lifebar if you don't stay on your toes. It would suck if they could do that even if you concentrated and did your best to keep it from happening. But if you can deal with it, that sense of pressure is a good thing.

    -The thing about the switch from VF2 to VF3 and from VF3 OB to VF3TB is that almost -any- decent move that could really be useful and powerful was weakened. And then any move that was SORT of useful and powerful was weakened.
    And then moves that were NOT useful and powerful were weakened too. WTF?!
    Some characters kept their abusively powerful moves, but this was pretty much limited to Jacky, Akira, and Kage... Sega's golden boys for the series.
    An example with sarah:
    -Elbow-knee. Hit consistently in VF2, you could always pounce and often combo after it. In VF3 - misses all the time, no pounce sometimes, almost impossible to follow with a combo. In both OB and TB it has much worse recovery, can be thrown afterwards (whereas in 3 it was uncounterable to some characters and only PK counterable to the rest)
    -PPPb+K - a true combo in VF2, leading to a knockdown. Not a combo in VF3.
    -d+K, K - consistent true combo in VF2, puntkick always knocked down. Doesn't in VF3, reduced damage.
    -d/f+K,K,K - fairly consistently combo'd all 3 hits in VF2, plus pounce. All three hits rarely connect in VF3. In TB, all three never connect.
    -TT sweep: was uncounterable and damaging and started float combos sometimes in VF2. Was uncounterable in VF3 but not damaging and couldn't start combos. In VF3TB became easily counterable as well.
    Knee - consistently high float in VF2, only PK counterable. Lower float in VF3 and throw counterable.
    K+G - uncounterable in VF2, throw counterable in VF3.
    Kickflip - reduced damage from 2 to 3, I think.

    You get the idea. And is Sarah in anyone's "top five contenders" list? I don't think so. Not in any version of the game except maybe VF1. Why take a low tier character and ream her so thoroughly? Don't even get me started on Pai. Have you ever heard the phrase "single swallow kick of doom?" or "ultimate d/f+P chop?" ... nope. Because move like that were merely "okay" and in VF3 they're crap. Damn, I got started. Lemme wrap this up.


    Sega realized this attitude was sucking some of the fun out of the game, and as a result some powerful stuff was returned to the characters in VF4. You'll even see stuff like Akira's SPoD going from escapable to non-escapable in the switch from VF4vA to VF4 v.B ... they've come to the conclusion that fair doesn't always equal fun.

    /versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>~~~ Don't make me rape you with a sharp stick ~~~/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>
     
  4. Happy_Friend

    Happy_Friend Well-Known Member

    The idea of the balancing of vf being tweeked to make the game more fun is a little scary to me. I mean there a lot of powerful moves in vf3tb to begin with. Lau is always dangerous (and my personal favorite as my name suugests). Akiras stun palm combo is escapable but come on, the only time it is even close to consistently escaped is when a really smooth player has had his sweep blocked against an akira who who uses the stum palm every time. Wolf has his b,f P+K, f+k, and a pounce which fucking sucks and Jacky, that bastard has his elbow, kick maneuver that sucks very hard though it doesn't do so much damage. Kage if he does his fucking magical ninja throw into a wall and then does the foward somersault kick followed by pppk takes off huge damage. Pai can do a middle kick stagger and then do some other shit that you can't block afterward. This wussy Pai player in Taiwan did that shit all the time and man did it suck. I mean to say that vf3 has many powerful moves that can leave a person in bad shape. If vf4 has way more then I am a little worried.
    I have not played vf4 yet. There is no place in the midwest where I can play it. I hope this changes soon. I cannot wait for the ps2 version. Any idea when it might hit American Arcades. There is a Sega Gameworks Arcade about hour from me?
     
  5. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Try to hold out until january 30th heh

    As for powerful shit, yes, it's still there in 3. But it was even worse in VF3 OB than it is in TB :)
    Re; SPoD escape: I dunno the timing of it, but I'm willing to bet someone with good reflexes can escape it by watching akira do that stretching arm motion at the beginning of the first hit. If not, then you'll see people crap out an escape because they were wailing on d/f+P+G hoping to escape akira's d/f+P+G throw (or his RBC).
    And jacky's f+P, K has definitely been a cheesy powerful move since VF2... ditto Kage's ten foot toss. But like I said, jacky and akira and kage are sega's golden boys. You'll be pleased to know that in VF4 Jacky can't do the pounce after f+P, K so it's not so deadly anymore.
    Kage's TFT is less deadly since it can be escaped, and in VF4 the combos do less damage.

    Pai's sidekick stagger is irritating, but anyone with an elbow can do the same thing, and many sidekicks work the exact same way. Lau has both an elbow and a sidekick and can usually do a stagger followed by either the canned palm or a dash-in throw.

    In VF2, Pai could do sidekick stagger, d/f+P (float) and then vs. light and midweights PPP-sweep. d'oh!
    And lau could do sidekick stagger, d/f+PPPK (or PPP-sweep). Or if you had skill, sidekick stagger, m-upkn-P, m-upknPPPsweep.
    It was tough to get out of.

    VF4 will be fair, but if you're not an expert, having really cheap easy stuff will help you more than it will help an old VF master.


    /versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>~~~ Don't make me rape you with a sharp stick ~~~/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>
     
  6. GLC

    GLC Well-Known Member

    Pai can do a middle kick stagger and then do some other shit that you can't block afterward. This wussy Pai player in Taiwan did that shit all the time and man did it suck.

    Hehe... well that's what happens when you don't struggle ;) Pai has nothing guaranteed after the sidekick.

    <font color=orange>I probably hate you.</font color=orange> /versus/images/icons/mad.gif
     
  7. Happy_Friend

    Happy_Friend Well-Known Member

    Really? Wow, fuck, I didn't know that. I only struggle when Lau or Akira or Hair Pai throw me face first into the ground. I didn't know that worked on those sidekick staggers. Fuck me. If I see that dude again I will slap him for not telling me. Oh, wait, he does not speak English.
     
  8. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re; SPoD escape: I dunno the timing of it, but I'm willing to bet someone with good reflexes can escape it by watching akira do that stretching arm motion at the beginning of the first hit. If not, then you'll see people crap out an escape because they were wailing on d/f+P+G hoping to escape akira's d/f+P+G throw (or his RBC).

    Definitely the latter than the former!
     
  9. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    OK, true, Sarah may seem underpowered in VF3 compared to VF2, but consider:

    - Awesome okizeme potential with moonsault in addition to everything else.

    - Many half-life float combos from d/b+K, double knee, d+P+K,K, etc.

    - Still a great pecking character, although you need a little more skill. Use elbow-swipe if the elbow connects; use as you would Lau's elbow-palm. f+P,b+K if the elbow staggered and you want to go for the guaranteed damage. Muscles Sarah almost never used elbow knee, and that is one monster Sarah player.

    Most people would put Jeffry in VF3 on the bottom half of the pecking order. But I bet every person who's played Adam wouldn't think so. In fact, Adam makes a pretty good argument of why he thinks Jeffry is stronger than Wolf. What I'm trying to say is that maybe the lack of a dominating Sarah player here in the U.S. (no offense to any and all current VF3 Sarah players) is what leads us to think that Sarah is underpowered, when she may not be that bad after all.
     
  10. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    well, my point was not so much that she's underpowered.. .it was that AM2 has consistently raped characters in VF3tb. The game is well balanced enough that she (like anyone else) has a few big guns to hold her own. Even pathetic aoi can take half life and she's GOT to be the worst char in the game, no matter how frustrating it is to play a good player who FC throws you 4 times for a KO.

    The problem is that her big guns are all more counterable, slower, less consistent, etc etc... that everyone else's.
    I mean, even if elbow-chop and elbow-heelsword are useful, they are not 1/10th as useful put together as sarah's VF2 elbow-knee.

    Also, oki isn't really a factor in my book, unless you're saying that sarah has more urawamari tricks to make your rising kick go the wrong way. Everyone has a basic and powerful oki game of strong midlevel or throw or dodge-the-rising-attack-and-counter.

    /versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>~~~ Don't make me rape you with a sharp stick ~~~/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>
     
  11. Happy_Friend

    Happy_Friend Well-Known Member

    I don't think that you say Jefrey is better than wolf. I like Jeffery more than Wolf because Wolf's style is lacking. I mean, he's an Indian wearing a cowboy outfit. He's got an identity crisis. Or he wears tights. I would rather see no dudes in tights. They can keep the contours of their buttocks to themselves if it's all the same. And as far as his moves, fuck, I played one Taiwanese dude who beat my Lau like 12 times in a row before I finally beat him. And they were not close matches. And I am an alright player. I can beat everyone that I play over here easily with my Lau, though I only know three dudes that play.This guy just killed me and not in the "cautious" (some may say bitch- like) way that some Taiwanese guys play. I mean he did it all to me. Repeatedly knocked me out like a naughty ho. And the city I lived in had about one a half million in its greater metropolitan area so I was always playing against tough fighters. For example, every time I missed with a low sweep he would side step and do the arm breaker. Even if I missed my sweep and he had to dash in and then side step to the correct side to do so. Also Wolf's back foward p+k sets up a painful sequence of events and hits often due to fear of Big Swinger.
    Don't get me wrong, Jeffrey is a bad ass. His three punch throw is tough looking and the face scrape manuever wall throw is hillarious and bad ass at the same time. He has lots of middle hits from various ranges and his head spear into the throw is very cool and intimidating. But I still have never seen a Jeffrey that could approach the level of that Taiwanese guy who repeatedly ate my crackers for the better part of a night with Wolf. I think I have PTSD because of that night. Oh, I have a question. Someone please explain too me the timing on Jeffrey's Toe kick into the crucifix piledriver. Also, is it down+kick, df, f g+p or do you roll the joystick over without letting go back to the center after you do the kick. I have seen it done many times, but, again, the fucking language barrier prevented me from ever finding out how it is done.
     
  12. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    Consider this: bullshit! Moonsault okizeme! Uh, yeah right. Many damaging half life combos. Well, so do most of the others, most with less much risky moves. Poking? Elbow swipe isn't even a true combo, and is one frame away from throw counterable; the elbow palm comparison is a fucking joke.

    Sarah sucks (or, if we need to be VF-politically-correct, is very difficult to play effectively), for everything about her that's been outlined in other threads, repeatedly to DEATH. It has nothing to do with the lack of players; even Harold (as well as Brian Mak, in earlier years) gave the best shot I've ever seen anyone give in the US and to anyone with a brain it plainly obvious that it was an uphill battle.

    And Adam could play anyone and he'd still kill, not because of the character but because of his fuzzy block ability.

    There is just NO comparison to VF2 Sarah and VF3 Sarah.

    --
    "A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"
     
  13. adamYUKI

    adamYUKI Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    adamYUKI
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    adamYUKI
    A person with a good handle on OS like ETEG, TEG, etc., has a very easy time taking out wolf. His short shoulder is taken out of the equation as well as one of his most damaging throws in the process. Also, a good gaurding ability along with knowledge of what is guaranteed to hit wolf after blocking certain moves of his ensures that damage is constantly being taken off. (One example: Every time i block wolf's d,f+K with Jeffry, i perform Jeffry's shot knee--->pounce for guaranteed damage). Yes, it is boring, but i feel exploiting guaranteed damage is one aspect of becoming a successful ass-rapist. It has gotten to the point where Hiro (our resident wolf expert) has been admitting that wolf is toooo frustrating to play with against a players with pretty good defense. Of course wolf can change up throws, so decent yomi is necessary for successful OS, as well as good conditioning with Jeffry's throws (very easy to do cause he has sooo many).

    As evidenced in Beat-Tribe tapes, the wolf players did not get very far at all! The Jeffry players were lethal (especially Odopan jeffry), but the wolfs' got their clocks cleaned. This lends further credence to the theory that at high levels where peoples' defensive ability is *good*, wolf is at a disadvantage cause he doesn't have "quick strike" moves that knock down (like Jeffry's shot knee).

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  14. adamYUKI

    adamYUKI Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    adamYUKI
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    People who played and loved VF3 now years later tend to think of it as less fun than the other VFs, as too serious. It's more of a general 'feel' thing.

    Um Creed who are you talking too... I thkn the majority of the VF3 players love the game, and play it all the time. Most of the regular contributors to this board who are VF3 players still play the game frequently.

    VF3 is way more fun to me than VF2, but of course thats a subjective point.

    CrewNYC


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  15. adamYUKI

    adamYUKI Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    adamYUKI
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    Hmm about your Sarah comment. She wasnt meant to be played in the same style as VF2. Her D+K+E is the ultimate poking weapon, that combined with F+K, K, P(G), heavy pounce or another D+K+E, or elbow, or the grab gives her a very good mind game. Shota, Harold and a number of other people played a very competative Sarah.

    CrewNYC

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  16. adamYUKI

    adamYUKI Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    adamYUKI
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    Dont forget wolf is at a disadvantage to agressive characters with a fast p. Like Jacky vs. Wolf in the beat tribe tapes, you can PPP wolf all day with little to worry about.

    CrewNYC



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  17. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Granted Sarah is -competitive-... because Sega always tries to maintain balance. Aoi is competitive too, even though I'm fairly sure she's the worst character in VF3. Someone can ALWAYS take a VF character and make that character a threat. Regardless of how sega meant Sarah to be played though, she only holds her own because everyone got 'the treatment' as well. The only really cheap move left in VF3TB is Jacky's EK, and at one point Sega was going to kill that too by making it not knock down... remember? It's in a few clips.

    Anyway, even though everyone lost out, she just lost so much more. I have a hard time thinking of anyone else who had 3 or 4 'staple moves' raped in favor of completely different moves. And those moves are not exactly rapist tools. d+K+E? It's too close to the f,f+P option select or a PPP poke that turns into PPPb+K if it hits. It's definitely not like a puntkick that connects for the sidekick+pounce for 50% or more damage. It's just a harassment move, akin to shun's goofy low kick. It takes 20 of them to really hurt your opponent.

    Anyway, I'm getting off my point... which was that TB was made fair, but the point was to make abuse moves decent, but not killer.
    Jacky still has EK-pounce for 80-100 points. Wolf still giant swings for that much and knees. Lau still upknifes and PPPsweeps. Pai still sidekicks and PPPsweeps. Kage still TFT's and combos...
    It seems like only Sarah didn't get to keep ANYTHING useful from before. No elbow-knee. Or mirage kicks. Or PPP-kickflips. Or puntkick-sidekicks. You get to replace that with throw counterable knees and low damage pokes.


    /versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>~~~ Don't make me rape you with a sharp stick ~~~/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>
     
  18. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    Yeah, PPP just KILLS Wolf. Uh huh.

    Moron.

    --
    "I know I say the word 'fuck' a lot, and I'd apologize, but; I don't give a shit." - Lewis Black
     
  19. adamYUKI

    adamYUKI Well-Known Member

    PSN:
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    Pai had three or four of her best weapons taken out of OB to TB. Yet I managed to make her a threat to some players. The biggest were things like her inashi which basically sucked in TB, her quick sweep which had different block properties, and her best throw, the ST had harder OTB bounce combo's then OB version. LIke ST, B K G, swallow kick, d/f p. That swallow kick is much harder to connect in TB, now I do D K instead, before on a slope I could chain, B K G, single swallow kick, single swallow kick, d/f p. Other small things were changed too. I think TB made pai weaker mainly cause inashi was made alot weaker.

    CrewNYC


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  20. adamYUKI

    adamYUKI Well-Known Member

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    UM I think Hiro mentioned this in another thread. When wolf blockes PPP there is little wolf can do to retaliate. PPP is one of the safest moves against wolf. Just watch beat tribe and how many people do PPP ad infiniteum to Wolf, and if you download one of my clips vs hiro you see he has a big problem against my ppp'ing jacky.

    CrewNYC

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