Why is everybody playing 2D fighting games?

I've never made a thread before so let me know if I've done the wrong thing.



So Evo just happened. I didn't watch it but I was chatting to my mate about it and he said Virtua Fighter wasn't there. He said that, as far as he knew, 3D fighters were either not there or struggling for audience. This really blew my mind and I really have to wonder: why are fighting game fans all playing 2D games now? I can't think of any other genre that has regressed backwards from 3D.

To my mind 2D fighting games were great. We all loved Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter and the crew but fighting games evolved with all the other genres to be 3D. With that change there was movement on a 3D plane, deep moves list and increased visual feedback from seeing the interaction between fighters. I couldn't imagine going back to playing a 2D fighting game with limited moveslist again. I enjoyed the new Mortal Kombat but not for its combat system exactly.

I cannot get excited about Street Fighter. Not watching it, reading about it or the thought of playing it. How can I go from playing complex games like Virtua Fighter and Tekken to a game with a movelist that can be counted on one (two?) hand and which looks like two paperdolls fighting?

So what's the deal? Why are the majority of fighting game fans playing 2D games now. What do people here think about 2D fighting games? I'm a big fighting game fan and there is literally nothing for me to get excited about for Evo. That sucks.

 

If I had to hazard some guesses, here are my reasons:

1) 2D games are simpler to learn. I don't think you can teach someone how to play VF, SC or Tekken easily. VF alone has so many game mechanics that it is tough for us to really remember what it was like not knowing how things worked. With 2D games, the core mechanics are usually straight-forward and you get pretty far with the raw basics. Things like fuzzy guard, frame knowledge and EDCTE are pretty necessary to do well at any 3D game so unless you develop those skills, your going to get beat and sometimes not know why.

2) Defense is far easier in 2D games. Chaining of the first reason, defense is far more straight forward. There are so many exceptions and ways of getting through defense in 3D games that it is easy to understand the appeal of 2D over 3D.

3) Better visually. This one is subjective, but I think the majority of people prefer watching 2D games because more stuff is going on. Watching a 3D game without a deep understanding of going on is really boring. Watching a 200-hit combo in Marvel is easy enough to get excited about.

Just look at someone like JWong, he can be master of so many 2D games, but has a hard time with 3D game. The skill sets are completely different for each game in 3D but most 2D games have decent transfer of the skill sets. I also think most people start out with 2D games (just since more exist) so they probably end up slanting toward those more often than not.

 

Well, first off, 2D fighting games, when done right, are simply classic.

You say "regressed" as if because 3D fighters exist, there is no need to play 2D fighters.
Not so.
If you look at the fighting game genre, because 3D fighters have found their place, the genre can almost be sub categorized into two distinct styles: the 2D genre, and the 3D genre.

I know that point is pretty obvious, but it is valid.
It doesn't mean 3D fighters are "better", but definitely different, and yes, have had more features that were able to be added, while at the same time, 2D fighters can offer animation, personality, AND a gameplay experience that has been honed, fine tuned, and be just as deep as 3D fighters due to years and years of refinement.

Will people have their preferences? Absolutely. You certainly do.
I was weaned on 2D fighters, and I have found myself gravitating more towards 3D fighters in recent years too.
VF, Tekken, DOA, etc.

Yet somehow, I am still drawn to good ol fashioned 2D fighters and play the heck out of them at times with friends.
SF2 and Alpha series, KOF and the SNK family of games, heck even the newer SF 4 and X Tekken games which LOOK 3D, but play in 2D.

I don't feel I am going backwards. Just playing the other half of the fighting genre.

So people that love their 2D fighters are just as happy playing their games as you are playing your 3D fighters. Nothing wrong with that.
Again, they can be just as involved and rewarding.
And if you think all 2D fighters are 'simpler' than 3D ones, then I have to wonder exactly what you define as being "complex".

But it sounds to me like you personally have moved on from 2D fighers, and that is cool too. That is just you. Many still like their 2D fighters, grab any chance to play new ones (Skull Girls for intance), and in fact, like myself, play both sub genres on occasion.

Just like Pac Man, Asteroids, or original Zelda games on consoles, 2D fighters are timeless, and not in the LEAST a step back. And many would agree or disagree, but there is no question 2D fighters have and always will have a strong audience.

 

Okay I can see that they are simpler to learn but that doesn't explain their explosion in recent years because fighting game fans used to play 3D games as standard. 2D games were a small niche and everyone was playing Tekken, DOA, VF etc. If you think back to PS2 days there were so many 3D fighting games coming out that people were playing. 2D games were rare. So why the reversal? Is it just a trend brought about by the popularity of Street Fighter?

All those advanced 3D techniques are not that important until you get to quite an advanced level. Maybe VF has always been quite technical but there is nothing stopping even your most basic scrub from jumping into a game of Tekken or DOA and mashing out a win or two.

Remember Tekken 3 days or Soul Calibur for that matter. 3D fighter used to be huge and the standard so what happened? You could say there is a lack of innovation in 3D fighters but what's so new about the 2D ones? Maybe it is just one of those trends. I wonder if it will swing back because right now it's very one-sided.

 

Okay fair enough: 2D games are valid fighting games but right now it seems to me that, based of Evo, 3D fighters are out. People are still playing 2D Zelda but MOST people are playing 3D Zelda. This goes for all other genres as well. So why the huge 2D revival in fighting games where most people are playing the 2D games? How did 3D become so unfashionable?

 

1) As Beasty already mentioned, 2D fighting games are easier to get into, get excited about, and understand. If my buddy, who isn't into fighting games, saw a close match in VF between two pro level players, he'd have no idea why they were moving they were or why they were using certain moves, etc. But, if he saw SF or MvC and saw a 100 hit combo, he immediately understands that someone just got their ass kicked.

2) There aren't that many 3D fighting games out there. Let's be honest, when Sega stopped making 3D fighters, there weren't that many new ones coming out. The only 3D fighters left today are ones that have a long history of being awesome. They've been around forever. They all have round numbers behind them now (Tekken 6, VF5, DOA5, SC5). No one wants to make another 3D fighting that has to compete with those.

Back in the day you had a large number of 3d fighters. Bushido Blade, Last Bronx, Fighting Vipers, Battle Arena Toshinden, etc. There was more flavor, more variety and more creative ideas. But, once the fighting game genre crashed, 3D fighters took it to the face.

Yet, 2D fighters, are still a dime a dozen these days. Streets Fighters, Vs Capcoms, KOFs, etc etc etc. Hell even other genres are making 2D fighters (Persona!?).

Until someone else jumps in the ring, or until one of the established 3D fighters does something radically different, 3D fighting popularity will continue to be a niche market within a niche market...

 

They haven't.
That was my point.
You are basing your post on Evo?
Ok, well, that's fine, but Evo, 'great as it is' is not the be all end all.

So much more goes on that doesn't get publicized, but is just as valid and real as stuff that does.

Take the entire "VF scene" for instance.
Many are saying, "Oh the community for it isn't that big", "Oh, no one but a few select hardcore play it".
And that may be so for 'publicized' stuff.
But do you realize the large amounts of people that play the series in private, in get togethers, and there is not a single media outlet around to chronicle that?
Does it make it that less important or popular. No.

Thing is, I am willing to bet, that in publicized events such as Evo, if for whatever reason, certain genres or styles are being 'pushed' (such as your examples of 2D fighters) it is just their way of making, or attempting to make something more mainstream at that time.

Next month, it could go back to 3D fighters, for instance.

I see the point you are making, but 2D fighters never did go away....no matter what media outlets try and tell people.
And how do YOU know more people are playing 3D Zelda than 2D Zelda?
Unless you are personally taking a census of the entire gaming population at large, you wouldn't.

3D fighters are NOT out, they are just fine.
Just like 2D ones always have been and continue to be.
Both can exist side by side.
And that is a great thing for us all.

I can only speak for myself, but I LIKE the idea of being able to play both sub genres on a whim, AND find people to play them with.
I suspect that will be the case for a long, long time.

Oh sure, publicized events may favor one style over the other at times, leading many to believe that one or the other is 'dead', but people know.
People still play both and there are developers making fine games for both, now and in the future.
Sounds good to me!

 

Hello IvorB,

You asked a few questions in your post, lets start with the main one:

Why are the majority of fighting game fans playing 2D games now?

Well lets think about this. When I start with a person who has never played a fighting game before, I start them with some version of Street Fighter. Why, I want them to learn how to perform simple movement and basic joystick commands. Sure I am into 3d fighters like Virtua fighter and Tekken but it does no good to start them there when they cant move correctly in a 2d plane.

Now after this new player I have been working with has a good base to work with I can slowly show them how to transfer that information to a 3d fighter. The last statement is the key.

Alot of new players are given a base to work with in 2d games and get very good at them, but when they go to play a 3d fighter they dont have someone to tell them how use their skills correctly. The new players come into the 3d fighter, they see hundreds of moves, many different kinds of ways move the character, and many different ways they need to block.

What ends up happening is simple. The new player goes back to the 2d game and in most cases does not back to 3d fighters. Ask any fighting player if they know how to throw a fireball with Ryu, almost all will say they can do it on command anytime they want. Ask those same people if they can wavedash correctly with Kazuya and you will see the number of positive answers fall greatly.

Now to the statement you made about 3d games at Evo.

First, Tekken was at Evo this year. You may or may not like Tekken, but it was there. Now you may ask why was Virtua fighter not run as a side tournament at Evo this year? That's my fault. That's your fault. That's anyone who cares for the games fault. Why? If we wanted really Virtua fighter at Evo this year we could have made it happen. All we would have to do is contact Mr Wizard (Evo director) and tell him we would have our own setups to play VF on for a side tournament. Many people I spoke with did not care if VF was at Evo this year because we had Sega Cup (which was great by the way).

To sum this up. If you want more people playing Tekken or VF, get out and teach people how to play those games. Hold your own gathering for those games. If you want Tekken or VF at a tournament, don't wait for someone else to setup the event, you need to put forth the effort make sure your game is there.

 

I was raised on 2D fighters and was active at arcades during the best 2D decade playing almost anything that came out.I still play an hour or so of SSF2HDR,SSF4,SFXT,Darkstalkers, CVSS2,MvsC2 etc but they dont exite me as they used to.I always though feel the itch to strengthen my knowledge on my main VF characters or learn a new chars moves.Same for TTT2 (although rarely played) and other 3D fighters.
In my case i think its the fact that over the years i acquired almost all the good things you can get from most 2D fighters along with the bad(same characters-dif games,same overused moves,lame zoning strategies, uninventive tactics,unoriginal fighting system concept) and probably got disgusted.Still love them but platonically.
3D's give you so much room to learn and improve,so many moves to use,deeper characters,move/escape/reverse options.I literally learn sth new every day.Plus the fact that you actually have a slightly increased chance to beat a better player (if you train hard).
Lastly i find the fact that one of the most historic,well-known,respected and pioneering FG like VF missing from EVO an utter disgrace for all in FGC.

 

In response to the title of this thread...everyone is NOT playing 2d fighters. If everyone was playing 2d fighters then this website would be completly empty. And I know for a fact that VF is big in Japan. I also know that a tekken website I use to go to still has a healthy number of people who frequent it.

I think 2d fighters are more popular than 3d though. One of reasons I think this is true is because the fighting game genre started with 2d games. The 2d games had too much of a head start on the 3d games. Just look at legendary 2d series like Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat. These two fighting game series were marketed well,and they both had movies,tv series, and cartoons based off of them. And generally speaking 2d fighters are a little more easier to get into than 3d fighters. You can see why 2d fighters are more popular.

 

i wonder why ppl are just mentioning SF VS and MK and not more complex stuff like Guilty Gear Blazblue and Melty Blood games that are IMO much more interesting and fun to play/watch

and BTW i think that MVC2 was a game that was hard as VF and not that far apart from VF4EVO

 

This old vid will explain things clear and it used to be on the front page of VFDC not too sometime ago

 

Why do some people bring up Justin Wong's name when they say its hard for someone who plays 2d to play VF???? I don't think Justin Wong has even been playing VF a full year. You guys talk like Justin has been playing VF for 3 years. Justin has my repsect for even attempting to play VF. Some players of his level would have too much pride to play a game they know they would lose a lot early on. I say him play some matches with Jacky and his fundamentals actually looked better than some people on VFDC,lol. You guys need to stop bringing up Justin's name cause you make yourself look silly.

 

People just don't like being taken out of their long established comfort zones. Switching to 3D, straight away you're having to block high all the time, instead of low

For many, many fighting gamers out there now, playing simply entails mashing a dragon punch when anything happens, then mashing super or ultra when you get them. That's it, over and over, night after night. They barely ever even try picking another character, let alone worry about the pace, visuals or just what other titles might be out there.
The majority out there mainly do worship mediocrity. I wouldn't worry about it too much.
If you've sat down with VF, learnt a few moves and gone into active match-play, you've already pretty much taken the red pill.

 

I've only been skimming this thread, but I would say a lot of people (including casual players) figure out how to play Soul Calibur decently pretty quick. I'm not saying they master it really fast, but I don't think people are making the argument that people master Street Fighter really fast either.

I think Soul Calibur is a design that generally is fun and intuitive to pickup pretty fast. It's very pickup and play friendly, imo. And to me, that is an aspect that the 2d fighters excel at.

I do feel that VF doesn't really feel so pickup and play (aside from VF2 and surprisingly, VF4). Often times, you feel right away it's a game to "learn" and as a lot of us know, it's a game where you're going to learn a lot of principals, and then you're going to unlearn a lot of principles or how to break them, and you are going to weigh a lot of options. It's what we love about VF, but it's also what comes at the expense of its accessibility or sustained sense of early achievement. VF feels like a long road for a lot of people. Those that love it, love the journey. Those that aren't in it for the long haul aren't, well... in it for the long haul

As for Tekken... well... that one is kind of an anomaly for me, but for their times, they've been very attractive and there's an aesthetic to the Tekken games. I don't think of Tekken as accessible, but it has a wide reach despite that. It's a good competitive game with reach despite the barriers.

 

You beat me to quoting this! haha

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a Mr. Ryan Hart who played all types of fightings games - both 2D and 3D? I heard he was really good at them. So I don't think it's you play one or the other. Just play what you enjoy.

I'm sorry guys, this view is completely wrong. 2D games are not simplier than 3D games. Like in the video, I also think it's all about utilising a different, but similar skill set.

 

Someone correct me if wrong, but I think when people say that 2D fighters are easier than 3D, they are referring to the games "pick up and play" aspect. It takes a good bit of skill to master SF, no one denies that. But it's much easier to pick up and get into it than VF or Tekken.

In SF I can simply mash and do cool shit. I might not win, but I will hit you with an Ultra. In VF mashing will get you murdered and you won't even understand why.

Does that mean that SF takes no skill? Absolutely not. It just means that novices will have a more enjoyable time with it than with a 3D game.

That's my experience anyway...

 

From the posts I quoted, they seem to think all you need to do is DP. Or am I reading their posts wrong? Which is different to what you are referring to. But I also disagree with 2Ds being easy to pick up and play. I think most people here are old enough that the first fighting game they played was in 2D. If someone started off with a 3D fighting game, they will find 2D games hard and difficult - so the opposite is also true.

I think people give SF (or any other fighting game for that matter) too little credit on this site. Mashing in any fighting game against an experienced player will get you slaughtered and you won't know why - which is probably the reason why you were mashing in the first place right?

 

nah it's the same in both 2-d and 3-d
mashing will get you killed

 

I disagree with this to an extent.

Because certain moves in certain 2D games offer invincible properties, and because certain mechanics like supers and ultras can quickly turn the tide of a fight: even against an experienced opponent in a 2D game you'd have a better chance of pulling a win out of your ass than a 3D game.

Again, that is highly dependent on the players and the game itself (DOAs reversals make novice wins easier to achieve as compared to other games without a similar mechanic).

This is all subjective, but no one is saying SF is a newb game. But, it is easier to get started in than a 3D game. It is much easier to mash out a Super that deals 50% damage than it is to pull off a complicated wall combo.

I agree mashing will get you killed regardless, but in some games it presents better rewards than others.