Why the return to VF2 style rings?

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by Guest, Aug 3, 2001.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    What is the motivation behind the return to flat, square rings? And some rings don't have walls at all. Why?
  2. GeeseHoward

    GeeseHoward Active Member

    You got me there. I actually think its a brilliant addition to VF3.

    Picked up VF2 the other day and after playing VF3 for so long, 2 feels very restrictive, dated and almost crap;)
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Some of the rings have breakable walls, so the rings aren't VF2 style, they are just... flat... and square... damn it AM2! Really, they are that way because in VF3 all the top players in Japan chose Akira's Dojo to fight in because due to the flatness there were no stage specific combos, and no advantages that were character specific on certain stage. Lau can disturbingly rip Aoi on Pai's rooftop with huge floats coupled with OTB stuff. So, top players liked Akira's stage for 2 walls, and 2 RO borders. Due to that, the made more stages like Akira's. I personally liked the varied terrain, but in "fair play"Lau could go crazy on everyone if the stages weren't level. I have used him in the test revs and his OTB stuff is ridiculous. enough for now
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    But, AM2 could have simply improved their usage of terrain variation rather than totally remove that feature from the series and alos remove the ability for the players to select the stages.
  5. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    you can still select stages.

    as for getting rid of the undulation, they wanted to reduce as much randomness and arbitrary advantages a particular character might have on a particular stage.
  6. Daniel Thomas

    Daniel Thomas Well-Known Member

    I've actually been dumping quarters into VF2 at a local arcade recently (the only Virtua Fighter to be found anywhere, sigh), and I agree with you to a point. It takes quite a while to remember how everything works in 2, and forget all the stuff you learned in 3. Even then, VF2 was the finest fighting game in its day (surpassed only by its sequel), and when you get your sense of timing back, it plays like a dream. I'd actually like to buy the machine from the operator, since nobody ever plays it (it can't actually be making money for them), but prices for old arcade games are rediculous.

    And, as for the arenas in VF4, I think this was a wise move overall. The notion of undulation in VF3 is great, but most of the time it just made things overcomplicated. I won't mind seeing them gone after a couple days of play.

    "One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How the elephant got in my pajamas, I don't know."
    -- Groucho Marx
  7. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    careful...a few here think vf2 was the best of the series so far. vf2 has a certain feel which can't be beat. i personally think vf3 is much more restrictive in some properties (movement, buffering of moves) than vf2. i go back to vf2 and it's like "holy shit! i can MOVE! and do cool combos which require skill!"

    and people who are expecting to be blown away with vf4 will be automatically let down. each installment of vf has been an improvement over the next, but not some incredible techno-blast. none of the games are really quantum leaps over eachother, although people seem to have that impression - probably due to the graphics. the general gamplay of vf, and even the general approach and most of the "big guns" of each character has not changed too much since vf1.
  8. Jason Cha

    Jason Cha Well-Known Member

    I also think people who haven't played VF4 yet underestimate the importance of walls, especially considering the walled stages are 10 meters, while the open ones are 14. What, from the center of the ring, Wolf's GS will just about (or just barely) hit you against the wall. In VF3, only a few stages had corners, where two walls met. Given that and the size of the rings, there weren't a whole lot of times when you were stuck in a corner, while in VF4, taking advantage of corners is pretty common.

    It definately feels significantly different from vf2 style rings, though, yes, there is no undulation

  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    "i can MOVE!"

    I'm not sure how to interpret this. VF3 had a better movement system. Obviously with the addition of the escape button, there was another layer of depth. Techniques like the korean step, box step, back forth zig zag (f+e, D/B, f+e, D/B) added lots of fluid movement to VF3, and movement assisted most URA techniques.

    I think VF2 combo's were acutally easier in some cases. Shun had some pretty easy combo's in VF2 involving D, f+P. Since I was a shun player in 2 I think his combo's were pretty simple.

    Im not sure about kage but in 2 his TFT, bb+P combo's weren't terribly hard to do, I think the same skill as TFT Knee combo's and in some cases with undulation I thikn the knee combo's are harder.

    Akira in VF2 was harder to do combo's than 3, stuff like stumble throw, SJK, p, p, yoho was hard to do in 2 where it is easy to do in 3.

  10. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    re: I can move!

    VF3's various combinations of Eing and CDing are neat, but they aren't the big pain in the ass that VF2 basic tai stepping is. The difference between them is simply that in VF3, you can do all sorts of unusual movement forward and from side to side, but none backwards. That means that if you're hinking and jinking all over the place, and your opponent wants to put a stop to it, he simply has to throw out an attack that appropriately counters your current movement. It's tough to guess what and when your opponent's next movement is going to be, so it's more of a mental thing or luck if you happen to stick out a move that tracks your enemy just as start to press E. You can maybe use a good blend of prediction and timing to stick out an elbow just as he happens to crouch dash in range to get hit by it. The point is that an attack can and will stop your opponent's movement, provided it's the *right* attack.

    In VF2, you can go forward and back and forward and back and suddenly go forward twice, or go back and then not go forward when your opponent expects it. This makes spacing really important. It's the easiest thing in the world to zip forwards and then stop on a dime and zip backwards before your opponent can hit you with a sidekick or some other decently ranged attack. The instant the sidekick whiffs you stop on a dime and zip in and throw him. Another basic scenario is you put the opponent to sleep with df,df - db,db - df,df and then psychically anticipate when your opponent is going to try to break that pattern. At that moment, you stop your forward crouch dash, stand and guard, and if your timing and spacing and yomi were spot on, the opponent sticks out an elbow and that elbow misses you by a millimeter. You suffer from no stagger, no blockstun, and you can instantaneously zip in and throw. That's why VF2 feels like it has more free movement. You can avoid attacks with a risk free backdash or backwards c-dash. You don't have to commit to a dodge, which is open to a throw, a tracking attack, etc. A big chunk of thinking is not there in VF2 simply because the backwards crouch dash is sort of like a cure-all for any situation where you're unsure.
    In VF3 the thinking is there, and using E the same way you'd use a backdash will constantly cause you to be punished (either because the opponent is smart or just because it's possible to hit a VF3 dodger and fairly tough to hit a VF2 back-crouch-dasher).

    re: combos: There's nothing in VF3 that's half so challenging as the tougher VF2 combos. In theory VF3 should be harder because of lower floats, but in those situations you just recreate the combo on pai's rooftop and suddenly, it's easy.
    Some things that got easier in VF3: On the bounce combos. In VF2, getting hits on the bounce was quirky, and the collision detection had to be just right. It's hard to get akira's SJK, takeoff kick OTB. It's DAMNED hard to get jacky's p-crescent, kickflip OTB. In VF3, it seems like moves are basically either "meant" for bounce situations or not. IE taka's D/F+PK, is clearly a move that was made to scoop people off the floor. Kage's DP is the same. There aren't many things in VF3 that only hit on the bounce in very unusual specific situations, the move either will or it won't.
    Also, PKG's and iaigeri kicks were neat combo tools in VF2 that are effectively gone in VF3. in VF3 PKG's are pretty much just for show in combos , but in VF2, depending on how good you were at them, you might save one or two frames per punch, or you might save three times as many frames if you did them fast. With perfect PKG ability you can do wolf's knee, PKG*4, PPP. And I don't need to do any iai examples, in VF2 it was there and in VF3 it's not, which is a shame. In VF3 most combos, once discovered, can be replicated by almost anyone, but the tough jacky and akira combos in VF2 take a lot of practice, even if you have perfect, explicit instructions on what needs to be done.

    Okay, did I make frequent poster yet?#!@

    <font color=blue size=11 face="Times New Roman">
    CreeD </font>(possible sig)
  11. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    remember backward CD'ing? remember buffered multiple dashes, backward and forward? remember multiple CD's, backward and forward? remember CD'ing from crouch, forward and backward? remember having more control over your dashes, CD or normal? remember crouch dashing toward, with your back turned? remember how long the dashes were (especially the CD's)? you didn't have the E in VF2, but you had more control over the _normal_ movement system. in VF3, from crouching, you have only half the options you do in VF2.

    don't try to argue that VF2 combos were easier. you will lose. no fucking shit, andy, of course VF2 has plug and chug combos - but practically all of the combos in VF3 are plug and chug. work on the triple iai; or TFT, swipeKGx3, PPPK; or Jacky knee, PKG, iai, PKG, d+P, ub+K; or Kage's knee, PKGx11, d+K+G (i could go on for a long time here, but i won't) for a few days and then try telling me the combo system in VF3 is as difficult and wide open as VF2's. try telling me that doing VF3 Akira ST, SJK, P, P, dbpm gives the same sense of accomplishment and satisfaction as doing, VF2 Akira ST, SJK, PKGx6, iai, dbpm. you can't.
  12. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    work on the triple iai
    or Jacky knee, PKG, iai, PKG, d+P, ub+K
    VF2 Akira ST, SJK, PKGx6, iai, dbpm

    I'm sorry for asking a stupid question, but what does iai mean?

    -<font color=white>Ghost</font color=white><font color=red>DOG</font color=red>
  13. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    in vf2.0 jacky and akira's standing high kicks (K) could be cancelled at the 12th frame -- after they hit. they were essentially kicks with no recovery. took a fair bit of timing, could be used in and to start combos. they took them out in vf2.1.
  14. Sudden_Death

    Sudden_Death Well-Known Member

    iai = iaigeri kick, imagine KOF's Benimaru's d,d/f,f+k, it looks the same and its called the same :)


    <font color=red>nAndato</font color=red>
  15. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    First of all, I'll admit that I still love VF3 and VF3tb and love the terrain. I like having to adjust to the terrain and sort of playing differently as a result. Each stage definitely has their own characteristic and trends that are guided by their designs (well, not always--depends on who is playing). For VF3, I think it's great. VF3 is still my favorite out of whatever I've played to this day.

    However, after playing an early beta of VF4, I like the way stages are in the game too. Perhaps not as much, but it's still damn good. You STILL have to adjust to whatever stage is picked and like in VF3, it will usually give you a hint as to what your opponent might be thinking. The square stages really emphasize a theme in the game without compromise. INTENSITY. The size of the stages vary to some extent. Walls and Ring-Outs provide an intensity that guides a decision on the challenger's part. This intensity is pretty extreme too. Jason has been stressing the walls, and rightfully so. When you are cornered against a wall, you are almost screwed. Not only screwed, but screwed enough to get killed by some really flashy shit (easy or difficult, but still flashy). If I had to judge the Tekken 4 clips, VF4's walls are not as extreme, but they're still pretty damn abusive (you at least have a chance to get away from the wall, but it's slim if your opponent is good--T4 almost looks like a hopeless situation, but walls aren't as common it seems).

    When pegged to a wall, a stagger practically means "truly fucked" as far as I can tell. Any kind of reel will do. There are quite a LOT of wall juggles and what not, added to the already crazy combo system that is in the game. The big deal with the wall though, is that if you're knocked against a wall or even bounced near a wall (I think), you can't quick rise/roll. If the bounce looks normal, you should be safe to some degree, if it looks like the wall had any effect on it, get ready to be bounced around and then some.

    The stages are big enough that matches can easily run without hitting a wall, but there's always that good chance that it's gonna happen, and when it does, even a scrub looks good (I made that fatal mistake a few times on Saturday and started getting really frustrated--played a positional game from then on, all the time). It's probably one of the few (like 1-4) times that any bounce is a threat in VF4. A typical OTB type combo doesn't work well in VF4 because of quick rises and quick rolls (there are things you can do to extend punishment, but lots of punishment potential is lost when someone quick rises and rolls). The wall plays on that by granting insane bounce combos.

    The threat of ringouts in all directions is quite a threat. The stages are big enough, but heck.... I was purposefully ringing out a lot of competition on Saturday with Lion. It's a blast too, and I find it even more intense than VF3 (probably because most of the characters play pretty linearly, and despite avoidance options, it "so far" doesn't seem too hard to keep them pressured).

    For me, a lot of things are exhagerated (visually and gameplay wise) in VF4. This is actually kinda cool in my book. Again, I still love VF3, but I think a lot of people are gonna love VF4 because it brings out this raw and pure adrenaline rush (if the beta I played is any indication of course). I'm more into games like VF3, but that's me. The exhagerations in VF4 are pretty crazy and are definitely going to get more reactions out of people (no matter the experience I would assume). A well placed ring-out oriented play is gonna look pretty scary. Seeing someone with their back on the wall gets intense and at least one person there is gonna pray to God that that person gets the hell out of there. Hits look hard, stuns are crazy in that game. Heck, my zoning Lion looks even more like an annoying bitch in VF4 than it does in VF3. It might even be the same damn thing, but even the little things like my dashing back and forth looks like WAY MORE INSULTING than it does in VF3. In VF3 you would probably be like, "hmm... he's just going in and out" whereas in VF4, I think some people started to get a reaction like, "that damn sonuvabitch!" Though I was getting more frustrated with machi-as-hell Lau players (it is a nice challenge imo, but that does not mean it's not frustrating as hell).

    It took so much work and experience to create matches this exciting in VF3, but in VF4, even the local newbie scrub has his crowning moments that stir adrenaline into the crowds.

    Hell, even the "ChaJ Special" (my name for it) looks cool in the version we played. If I remember correctly: df P,P-->d P-->DF P,P-->u P(?) (I think it's actually a cool combo, but thinking about it has me thinking it's a bit whacked).


    Forgot to clarify. On normal OTB type combos, you can quick rise (I believe) upon each bounce in case you missed the last ground hit. With the exception of the Giant Swing, I couldn't quickrise throws that would have me crash on the floor. But on things like Shun doing multiple sweeps, unless a wall was involved, a quick rise commonly after the second sweep, sometimes after the first I think.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Chanchai on 08/06/01 03:49 AM (server time).</FONT></P>
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest


    In T4 a player that's smashed against the wall can techroll off of it and there are also suprise exchange type moves that can be done by players with there backs to the walls. Other than that I enjoyed your post.

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