Wolf's weak points (Formerly in FT Wolf Thread)

Re: That's great.

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KiwE said:
How can it be "common and easy to fuzzy! " while "throws on wakeup are very commonly (almost always) delayed." at the same time? That's very 3d.

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There is a counter point to what I said, but this isn't it.

KG cancel -> throw (delay throw) is used to beat fuzzy because fuzzy is commonly used. It is a very simple and effective way to deal with fuzzy, with high reward, because someone who fuzzies wil not TE, so this is when the TFTs/PGSs/splash mountains/270s come out.

Against someone who uses KG cancel throw a couple times on wakeup, one option is to backdash, since you'll avoid the throw, and delay attacks (since this person is throwing on wakeup, they may expect you to EDTEG instead of trying to fuzzy). Plus backdash gives you space, which is good for several characters.

Thing is, if you never go past a standard immediate throw/immediate mid mixup, I'm just going to fuzzy and it's never going to go past that until you start doing something else.

 

Re: That's great.

I still don't see why people discount (with possible cancle) as an oki tool as BK suggested earlier, although I am the first to admit I am not a high level player. On that note, if someone can provide an answer to my earlier question about the general effectiveness of the shoulder charge cancel I would appreciate it.

 

Re: That's great.

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Robio_kun said:
I still don't see why people discount (with possible cance) as an oki tool

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From my experience, the shoulder feint mixup game is good from one combo only: MC +, ++.

The ++ followup does only 2 points less damage than ++, but leaves the opponent much closer. This way they will stay in your throw range when they tech. From this setup I think full charge +/+ cancel -> throw is actually pretty strong. But in most situations, you're too far away for people to really worry about you canceling the shoulder and dashing in to throw.

Also, I think MC +, ++ is a great setup for the + hit throw in FT.

 

Re: That's great.

i think you have more than enough time to dash up to the opponent imo, especially if they make a desicion to evade. which is the main use for the tool. the most important thing you should do is stay of of hit range.

the main point is the that the opponent doesnt have much of an option to attack you but be pressured when they see you charge up to either keep still or evade. on a failed evade, you have enough time from a distance (and i forgot to mention this) to feint, and to apply another b,f+p which will hit them. (i remember segaru using this against arashi in the old beat-tribe green book dvd). if you want to mix it up with a throw, i think it will work as a nice surprize, especially if you keep hammering them with anit-evade hits.

also, you will have some room to apply some fully charged shoulders which the opponent knows it wiill give you big advantage when blocked (and make them think evading is their only option). things like this is the main reason why i made it relevent to get-up risers which is where i think it is most effective.

 

Re: That's great.

Because if they block it, or back dash evade, Wolf is pretty messed up. So like what Dandy_J said earlier, it's only effective if you do combos which places the opponent close to you. Otherwise Wolf can be hit out of the charge, guarded, or simply made to whiff by back dashing.

 

Re: That's great.

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Dandy_J said:
Also, I think MC +, ++ is a great setup for the + hit throw in FT.

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Dandy, you're going to have to explain this more. I don't get it. How is a MC knee a setup for a hit throw?
And further to that, what is this + hit throw you're referring to? For Wolf? Did I miss something /versus/images/graemlins/confused.gif, because there's no such hit throw for Wolf in FT. Do you mean his new hcb+P+K hit throw? If I missed something, my bad.

<font color="yellow">.cheers.</font>

 

Re: That's great.

Hmmm. Thanks guys, I have been playing pretty much the way BK was talking about and it has been working for me (note the lack of good opposition). the (cancel) is one of my mainstays. I'm still not sure about why the rest of you guys say this would not work. What BK says makes sense to me (and has worked in practice, but then again I haven't had any good opposition.)

 

Re: That's great.

too much b,f+p mix-ups = knee in face. I would hardly consider this move to be a bread butter move, but once awhile is okay consider b,f+p defended isn't that bad.

 

Yeah right.

Hey Dandy J man, this is fucking silly. Check this out.

1) Common technique that all characters in the game can apply to delayed throws and win.
2) "throws on wakeup are very commonly (almost always) delayed ."

Q: So where are these whiffed throw animations I keep hearing about in Oki due to backdash?

Note, I'm even being nice and not going into how retarded it was by Shang to say that backdash wins against "a slow circular" at this point.

Over and out.

/KiwE

 

Re: Yeah right.

Kiwe you are so clueless, please just stfu and dump your face in the toilet for 10 mins.. FUCK.. if you don't understand then just admit you don't understand, stop making a fool out of yourself by insisting some stupid garbage that only expose your lack of vf experience and knowledge. fuck head

 

Re: That's great.

A fake works just like any other attack on get up. If the opponet guesses that you will fake it, they will just attack once they are up to beat your fake. It's not something that's vastly different from any other move to apply on wake up. It's just a bit more risk and a bit more reward. You might as well try Wolf's KG fake and see what you can do with that.

 

Re: Yeah right.

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KiwE said:
So where are these whiffed throw animations I keep hearing about in Oki due to backdash?

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What you mean like in japanese match videos? Japanese players don't backdash much after a TR because there are better options. All I said is "this beats that". That doesn't mean no one is going to do it though.

 

Re: That's great.

Srider, like i said before, the objective is to stay out of hit range for the most part and make the opponent think they have no option to attack, that's why it's wiser not to abuse this during the match when you are close and the player has easy choices. in situations with get up risers off the floor, it is more or less the case that they dont, especially if you have just backdashed and made them whiff their rising attack. their only options in mind is to stay guarded or evade. backdashing at this point is an option, but i think it's less likely for that instance. besides, you still have the possibility to feint and make another choice.

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Because if they block it, or back dash evade, Wolf is pretty messed up. So like what Dandy_J said earlier, it's only effective if you do combos which places the opponent close to you. Otherwise Wolf can be hit out of the charge, guarded, or simply made to whiff by back dashing.

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the opponent blocking the hit is why it's a choice game. you can mix it (and the shoulder is not that bad on block and gets stagger fully charged). you can even feint and surprise a guarder with a low lariat from time to time and it's effective just as you chose to mix it up with a dash-in throw imo.

still, lets not ignore what shang said about abusing it too much. i mean any predictable opponent is already flawed.. i'm just saying it's one of the best choice games to play against otg risers and attack whiffs.

 

Re: Yeah right.

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What you mean like in japanese match videos? Japanese players don't backdash much after a TR because there are better options

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So why is it that it's a bad option to backdash / boxstep in Oki then Dandy as compared to these "better options" if everyone uses a delayed throw in Oki?

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Kiwe you are so clueless, please just stfu and dump your face in the toilet for 10 mins.. FUCK.. if you don't understand then just admit you don't understand, stop making a fool out of yourself by insisting some stupid garbage that only expose your lack of vf experience and knowledge. fuck head

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Your fooling no one Shang.

/KiwE

 

Re: Yeah right.

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KiwE said:
So why is it that it's a bad option to backdash / boxstep in Oki then Dandy as compared to these "better options" if everyone uses a delayed throw in Oki?

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Just because X beats Y does not make X a good option, or Y a bad one. Backdash does beat a delayed throw, but so does attacking, and a backdash has no real reward. The two are very similar options in risk, but attacking is much better reward than backdashing.

 

Re: Yeah right.

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KiwE said:
So why is it that it's a bad option to backdash / boxstep in Oki then Dandy as compared to these "better options" if everyone uses a delayed throw in Oki?

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Didn't say it was a bad option, I said there are better ones.

Lots of people like to fuzzy after a TR.

KG cancel throw can be used against fuzzy after TR.

If the defender knows his opponent will try and delay throw OR delay attack, he is free to backdash. He could also just yoho the other dude in the face.

 

Re: Yeah right.

That's not at all the point. The point is wether or not "everybody" uses a delayed throw in Oki which was the original justification of modifying yourself into a standing position (otherwise you could just continue to be crouching if you wanted that) to beat throws which is retarded in itself. And if you don't think a backdash > evade (boxstep) would have any benifit if everybody uses "delayed throws" in oki (which they don't); it would beat out any throw and linear attack (while ETE would only the ones you input etc). That's quite a big benifit isn't it? Rather odd that it's that hard to find a clip of someone backdashing away from a throw don't you think? Hell I didn't even say Japanese clips.

Nvm: Fuck this. Let's leave this silly argument and keep the discussion on Wolf Oki floating. Backdashing is great to avoid throws in Oki.

BK; Thanks for the tips on fakeout 46p. Will try 'em out and sounds like fun stuff.

/KiwE

 

Re: Yeah right.

Thanks guys.

Shang, obviously you are right, if you abuse anything people will adapt.

Srider, following up on what BK was saying, if you are right at the edge of attack range when faking the shoulder and the opponent decides to attack, you can often surprise them with +.

 

Re: Yeah right.

Hi again.

I just wanted to add that I definitely take Shang's point about eating knees. I just played against the AI for a bit to see how far I could push the shoulder fake thing and I found that eventually I just ate Goh's . I imagine it would be much the same for those with longer range knees like Brad, Sarah and Wolf. Still, like shang said it is good to use occasionally.

Robin