Wolf's weak points (Formerly in FT Wolf Thread)

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by Shang, Sep 7, 2004.

  1. KiwE

    KiwE Well-Known Member

    AI testing for mindgames is a no no.

    You can't really test these things against the Ai. Specially not mindgames (like Aoi elbowcancels etc) like this. Something that work on the AI doesn't work on real ppl and somethings that work on real ppl doesn't work on the AI /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    /KiwE
     
  2. Pai_Garu

    Pai_Garu Well-Known Member

    Re: That's great.

    I guess we are really saying the same thing. Since if you can cause the opponent to whiff an attack, you might as well feint and short shoulder or /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif or PGS. The point really is that the shoulder charge is a variety tool, it's not one of Wolf's main attacks. Wolf has better and safer options in those situations. You can put it in there for the mix, but it's pointless to try to develop your core offense around it.
     
  3. Robio_kun

    Robio_kun Well-Known Member

    Re: AI testing for mindgames is a no no.

    Yes of course. I understand the limitations of testing against AI, however because I don't have any good human opposition, it is the best I can do. The fact that I did eat knees and /versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif etc when I overused the shoulder fakes against the AI though suggests that overusing it against a human would have similar results. The fact that Shang also predicted this against humans is another factor in favour of this hypothesis. Anyway, I recognise that this is not an ideal way of testing but it is the best I have. And anyway, are you suggesting that against a good human, I wouldn't eat knees etc?

    And to Srider - I guess you are right.
     
  4. Shang

    Shang Well-Known Member

    Re: Yeah right.

    [ QUOTE ]
    SiYkO said:
    Backdash does beat a delayed throw, but so does attacking, and a backdash has no real reward. The two are very similar options in risk, but attacking is much better reward than backdashing.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Alan, please refrain yourself from commenting on things you've never experienced, tested or have actual knowledge of. a quick backdash forces the attacker to attack without delay or.. to attack with extra delay. You “could†in theory throw them also but that’s quite risky. As Dandy_J said nobody takes none delayed high throws for a reason, because when you recovery from TR at crouch there are only a few way to stand up instantly: you can dodge, attack, or dash. If attack, it will beat a throw. If dodge, chances are they are inputting TEs, so that will beat throws. Therefore 99.99%, or even 100% of high throws on TR aren’t the fastest timing. Even when trying to throw a dodger the timing isn’t the fastest since the throw window is large once they dodge but you don’t want to whiff your throw by doing it too early. The fastest timing would be like the DFS where Akira starts the move while the TR is still going on, or a low throw where it seems he threw you while you are TR, but in fact you’ve just recovered. The other way of standing up instantly is dashing. Forget forward dash since it’s only for fag who TR and try to do Jeff’s 33pg on you out of nowhere. Backdashing will beat many of the normal options people are used to to punish TR. If they used any kind of normal delay attack to beat your dodges, there is a good chance you’ll backdash out of range. If they try to use the typical timing to throw your dodge, there’s a good chance you’ll backdash out of range. If they do a fastest timing attack or an attack with extra forward range it will hit you, but unlike (read siyko noobie) attacking out of a TR, you won’t get MCed. And.. when your backdash works, the reward is very very good because chances are they either whiffed a throw or attack in your face, so it’s a good idea to buffer an attack into the backdash. So with Wolf you can do.. TR > bb,p which becomes a backdash into b+p, this works wonders since b+p has great range and requires no counter, but you can also try b,f+pk. (this works wonders on boston players, Jerky you know it!). Kazu’s lau would do bb,f+p, and that hits like crazy. I mean of course if you know he is going to backdash into an attack, you can mess him up. Such as Akira uses an extra delayed yohoo to MC lau’s b,f+p, but that’s the next step of yomi right?
    As far as why you don’t see this on JP video… To be honest, there come to a point when you know enough about VF, you’ll realize it’s impossible to logicalize what’s happening on those videos because they play at a complete different level than you/us whatever. If you think you know what Chibita is thinking or why he did or that most of the times.. you are a stupid newbie fuck. You can learn their combos but you can’t learn their yomi by watching the damn videos!
    So.. this is why I think bb works pretty cool, cuz I saw kazu do it and it’s mad annoying.. so thanks to Kazu.
     
  5. Siyko

    Siyko Well-Known Member

    Re: Yeah right.

    thanks for agreeing with me

    obviously backdash has reward, but unlike attacking, it is still beatable. If they delay a move, they can beat your backdashed attack with canned followups. And in oki situations, MC vs normal hit is not a huge difference, looking at the moves one would use against a TR. Don't try to enlighten me on something that was implied by my post.
     
  6. Shang

    Shang Well-Known Member

    Re: Yeah right.

    1, I'm not agreeing with you.. I'm correcting you.

    2, Yes everything is beatable one way or the other.. please say something useful next time. "but unlike attacking, it is still beatable" are you saying attacking is unbeatable?

    3, Counter Hit not too much difference than Normal nit??? Do you even know CH gives more damage, bigger combos, some moves will only float/crumble on CH, and every move gives more frame advantage on CH? Are you stupid? Are you thinking about changing your name to Kiwe?

    4, implied? you only implied you are a noobie.

    Since it's obvious from our discussion you are more cluelss than I expect SiYKO. I'll give you an example. I do wolf's knee none delayed on you when you TR (which happens all the time btw), instead you did backdash, what happens to the knee? And what would happen if instead of backdash you did d+p?
     
  7. KiwE

    KiwE Well-Known Member

    Re: Yeah right.

    Congratulations Shang, you just got away with murder.

    [ QUOTE ]
    As far as why you don?t see this on JP video? To be honest, there come to a point when you know enough about VF, you?ll realize it?s impossible to logicalize what?s happening on those videos because they play at a complete different level than you/us whatever.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Funniest thing I've ever read. A lowlevel technique that everyone should use without ever seeing it used that's not even described but you should use cause you can't think Japanese that's a good option but there are better option and that's why it's not used but you're a n00b if you don't use / ignore it cause you can't think Japanese or use their wakeup games. It's honestly saddening that I was the only one to talk against backdashing (hey, what's the float on a croucher for example?) in oki - vfdc has gone to hell.

    And that's that.

    /KiwE
     
  8. Shang

    Shang Well-Known Member

    Re: Yeah right.

    I see people sit at home play a ton of quest mode think they mastered the game by getting some characters to Champion level and come on here think they are somebody or know something. “oh I created this combo shit and shitâ€Â, That’s you Kiwe. They know jack shit about the game, about real competition, real techniques. In fact they know nothing about what makes VF fun other than getting all the items and rankings. That’s you Kiwe. You think you can learn the game by watching videos, reading books and play quest mode? You are a moron, topping that with your arrogance and ignorance make you a stupid fucking moron. Go back to playing quest mod fuckface. No one would even notice if your ps2 fell on your head and killed you.


    BTW.. can anyone explain what does this sentence mean? I read it like 5 times and I can't figure it out:

    A lowlevel technique that everyone should use without ever seeing it used that's not even described but you should use cause you can't think Japanese that's a good option but there are better option and that's why it's not used but you're a n00b if you don't use / ignore it cause you can't think Japanese or use their wakeup games.
     
  9. KiwE

    KiwE Well-Known Member

    Re: Yeah right.

    [​IMG]

    [ QUOTE ]
    I see people sit at home play a ton of quest mode think they master the game by getting some characters to Champion level and come on here think they are somebody or know something. ?oh I created this combo shit and shit?, That?s you Kiwe. They know jack shit about the game, about real competition, real techniques. In fact they know nothing about what makes VF fun other than getting all the items and rankings. That?s you Kiwe. You think you can learn the game by watching videos, reading books and play quest mode? You are a moron, topping that with your arrogance and ignorance make you a stupid fucking moron. Go back to playing quest mod fuckface. No one would even notice if your ps2 fell on your head and killed you

    [/ QUOTE ]
    /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Haha. You don't know me and I'm glad you don't. You could always challenge me like you did with Shou and RH. Oh wait, that went nowhere (and wouldn't even be practical). And no, I ofc don't consider myself their level or anything like that but what's sad is that you do (deep down) but blame it on your character (change then?).

    Yeah I learn alot from texts etc (laugh), is that wrong Shang? Should we shut down this site (where would you flame if that was the case - a cs forum)? I'm not holding my breath to see you place high in any domestic tourney so far (that you actually go to) - why are you a authority again? Maybe you should use some of your almighty wisdom (because actually I do believe you know alot about vf) and actually help ppl out instead of telling them to suck cock once in a while - the clown act is getting old and you've already been banned for it once. But hey, aslong as humour keeps you alive you can treat ppl like shit right?

    Kisses and hugs; sorry but no hard feelings over you my little friend in flipflops. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    /KiwE (laughing hard)
     
  10. EUROTRASH

    EUROTRASH Well-Known Member

    Re: Yeah right.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Shang said:

    see people sit at home play a ton of quest mode think they mastered the game by getting some characters to Champion level and come on here think they are somebody or know something. “oh I created this combo shit and shitâ€Â, That’s you Kiwe. They know jack shit about the game, about real competition, real techniques.[/i]



    [/ QUOTE ]

    I thought I'd let you know, the reason that people aint saying more in this discussion is that they either dont have the energy to do so, or like following yours and kiwes fight. Your retarded posts (mostly thinking of your way to deal with people and jumping arugments, not talking about your vf skill which i know nothing about and don't give shit about either) don't piss me off at all actually. It just makes me sad to see a person whose only way to gain attention is to behave so stupidly. Not that you care what makes me sad, anyway...

    About your accusations of kiwe being a quest noob: I just don't think you get over 30% wins versus Raider (don't come say "who the fuck is raider") from playing quest mode and thinking that makes you good. KiwE might be somewhat addicted to VF theory pr0n /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif , but that doesn't make him any less of a player.
    Please come say I'm a fucking cocksucking noob etc. I don't care cause it's totally irrelevant.

    Okay, let shang entertain us some more... (keep it up shang, you're fuuuuunnny!!!! *thumbs up*)
     
  11. Shang

    Shang Well-Known Member

    Re: Yeah right.

    hey man... if you got no hard feeling for being owned hard then good for ya. but you still got owned. Do you realize you've been talking to yourself for the past 5 pages?
    "help ppl"? lol don't make me laugh, help out who? help out you? please okay.. nobody can help you learn vf. N-O-B-O-D-Y. There are plenty of information that you can help yourself. If you make the effort of meeting up with people locally and nationally, practice alot you'll be respectably good. man fuck.. help me.. help me.. fuck off! use the search go play some real people and quit that crying.

    Hey Mark_Slight fuckface, here's something relevant: fuck you. Raider you mean the guy that came to the Boston tourney? Maybe you should open you fucking eyes and read what he said in the Boston report fuck face.
     
  12. BK__

    BK__ Well-Known Member

    Re: That's great.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Srider said:

    I guess we are really saying the same thing. Since if you can cause the opponent to whiff an attack, you might as well feint and short shoulder or /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif or PGS. The point really is that the shoulder charge is a variety tool, it's not one of Wolf's main attacks. Wolf has better and safer options in those situations. You can put it in there for the mix, but it's pointless to try to develop your core offense around it.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    that's correct. infact even against the right situations, it's only supposed to be used as a choice out of many.

    so far i find some of these situations quite useful with the shoulder charge. (longish down recovery, well spaced)

    ----------------------------------
    against risers off the ground:

    1. after a KS - b,f+k+g

    2. after MC low drop kick - df+p+k

    3. after b+p (opp's back) - df+p+k [low P cut exchange]

    4. after screw hook(non TR) - df+p

    5. after slam air juggles followed by df+p

    ---------------------
    against recovery:

    1. after screw hook (opp recover)

    2. after MC knee, b+k+GK

    normally after knee, SS it's perfect distance for another SS while opp is recovering in place - it's similar to brad's b,f+p+g throw with the knee followup, although bare inmind it becomes a low float when timed correctly. so you have to followup with d+p - reverse hammer. great damage on the whole, and you can play a 50/50 game with KS (and it's amazing wide throw window)

    /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
     
  13. KiwE

    KiwE Well-Known Member

    Get back to Wolf oki discussion.

    Shang you couldn't own a cup of water if you stood with one empty in the bottom of the sea (even if you could draw words like 'cock' in the sand if you really really went for it holding your breath).. Go fuck yourself but put on a double layerd condom twice first so you'll actually feel anything.

    Believe me, I don't need your help (backdashing was probably one of the first things I did in VF) but if I ever need w(h)ine I'll make sure to swing by boston and crack a bottle open on your squarehead for reference.

    I think it's really sad that you say that there is no possibility to teach ppl things about VF (and make it more enjoyable) on a site like this. Well, that's being a fucking troll for you. Must be fun just strolling around hoping you'll find someone to unload your penisenvy on while being ashamed of yourself irl. Hey do you still ask around for cocksizes like you did on irc or do you actually make some money out of that by now? Fun shit you made about making an effort to play people nationally, coming from you that's hillarious. Prior to Evok24 you left your house / boston when again the last time Shang? I've been in Gotenburg and Oslo this summer alone.

    Raider shouldn't be brought up in this, he's a hella nice guy and actually had some nice things to say about you. Cause of that for a while it was easy to come to the conclusion that you actually were two ppl - the nice guy irl and the E-penis online. The problem is that the E-penis is taking over Shang. By a storm. Some people could believe you would cool down after being banned but since then you've been testing the lines and you're back with a vengence (worse then ever). "Over one billion owned!~~". How hard is it to go somewhere and join with the majority opinion (which you always do) just to be an ass? Oh wait, that's not counting those you've already set on a path to humiliate whenever you can (like Ice-9). "Over one billion owned!~~" - you're a joke or a pull of the smilecheeks at best. Nobody cares.

    Do you feel better throwing shit on everyone in your enviroment? Or do you think ppl percieve you better? I can't believe the amount of bs ppl like Jerky or Siyko (which are friends) put up with when it comes to you (just to "accept you as you are") but then again that's their problem if they accept to be treated like shit online for you to act impressive. Go play warcraft and whine about race balance some more or change your flipflops (who doesn't wear them to work) cause they stink. Fuck you Shang. Go play CS and scream l33t amongst other 13yearolds without a clue. I've given up all hope on you as a person by this point. You're two fries short of a happy meal and have issues you seriously should attend to. Viva la Shangster.

    /KiwE
     
  14. kungfusmurf

    kungfusmurf Well-Known Member

    Re: Get back to Wolf oki discussion.

    Kiwe, you're really talking out of your ass again. The same as w/ your idea of Karate techniques dude. Even though Shang acts like a Whining idiot and is completely the KOOLEST in person. He does tell it like it really is.

    On subject of Ryan Hart & Shou you should really double check your facts before saying anything seriously since Shang's judgement is pretty spot on both of them.

    Lastly, I'm telling you now that people who really know Shang is laughing their ass off at you Kiwe not the other way around. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     
  15. Aoimaster

    Aoimaster Well-Known Member

    Re: Get back to Wolf oki discussion.

    WHO GIVES A FUCK ABOUT HART, SHOU, SHANG??? WHERE'S SHORTA'S LAU AT???
    BY THE WAY, PRETTY HORRIBLE WOLF FLAME(LAME) THREAD. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     
  16. KiwE

    KiwE Well-Known Member

    Re: Get back to Wolf oki discussion.

    [ QUOTE ]
    The same as w/ your idea of Karate techniques dude.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Argh Smurf - I've told you 1001 times nobody stomps their foot for power (not even Aki)! /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Other then that I couldn't care a shit about selected ppl "laughing there ass off" honestly. Glad to be of service then (not like I didn't know "Shangster" would have a fanclub).

    /KiwE
     
  17. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: That's great.

    Well, to get back on topic--I actually played Wolf quite a lot yesterday and paid special attention to okizeme. I have a concession to make: Wolf isn't a particularly good okizeme character. The reason is not that he doesn't have the tools (throws/catch/stunner/SS are just fine), it's that he doesn't really have the opportunities.

    Throughout this thread, we've been talking about okizeme in differing terms...I was thinking more of QR/TR situations since most characters ex-Lion and ex-Aoi are more or less the same when it comes to rising kick situations. E.g. on a rising kick situation, just back dash and punish. Or hop and attack, etc.

    It's QR/TR situations that Wolf isn't particularly good in. In almost all of Wolf's knock-down situations, the opponent is either too far away or Wolf's recovery too slow for Wolf to really take advantage of the situation. In fact, the only move that I can think of when he does have sufficient time is /versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif, a risky move with limited reward.

    Combos involving screwhook or /versus/images/commands/D.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif, long distance side kick, etc. simply knock opponents too far away. Wolf doesn't have enough time to dash up and get a well timed attack in. Opponents have enough time to back dash, attack before catch becomes effective, etc. And yes, even fuzzy guard.

    (Knee counter is situation specific--I would go for /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif games).

    And in situations where Wolf IS close enough (e.g. sidekick at close range) to impose catch/stunner nitaku, smart opponents often choose not to TR/QR. Wolf is left attempting a slow-as-molasses, risky /versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif ground attack with little payoff.

    The tools are there, the opportunities are not. That explains why we don't see many Wolfs in clips forcing okizeme pressure games.
     
  18. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: Get back to Wolf oki discussion.

    KiwE, don't worry about Shang so much. 90% of his antics are jokes to liven up the place...to fill the vacuum that Bungle left when he decided he didn't like VF4. Or something like that. In a way, one needs to meet Shang in order to understand his behavior (and humor) on-line.

    He chooses different subjects to make fun of based on the flavor--flame?--of the month: Shou, Ryan, Jerky, yourself, etc. Personally, I'm just flattered to be the one constant on his list; something to do with my kicking his ass in the past, heh heh. (Relax Shang, you take a joke one of these days).

    My only concern is that he turns people off VFDC who don't know what's going on, such as yourself. That's the part of his antics that I find annoying.
     
  19. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    Re: That's great.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Combos involving screwhook or D,f+P, long distance side kick, etc. simply knock opponents too far away.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    This is what I was trying to get at when I was putting forth the short-shoulder combos as better setups - they leave Wolf closer and in better position to apply pressure, imo. We have some strong Wolf play in Toronto and often the combo of choice for applying continued pressure with Wolf is Shoulder - P (P) - Shoulder...These are just my experiences and observations...but it seems to be more effective for that kind of game than the screwhook comobos.

    <font color="yellow">.cheers.</font>
     
  20. Shang

    Shang Well-Known Member

    Re: Get back to Wolf oki discussion.

    Wooh Kiwe,
    you wrote so much about me, I'm impressed. Geez you actually talked about me in all the way in where ever the heck you live, I'm truely speechless. You seems to know my every move now, where I go, how people feel about me, even the people I play vf with.. What are you going to do next tell us why dogs pee side ways? Or maybe why your mom didn't have an abortion with you when she should have. You think somehow you know me because what Raider said a couple things about me? Why don't you get a fucking life and stop analyzing shit that's completely irrelevant to your life. I'll give you a start, turn on your PS2 pick wolf and play him to the last arcade in Quest.
    What? you got nothing to say about what a fucking moron you made yourself from blabbing on random nonsense about the game you think you are the shit in? Please ok, if you think going to some no name gatherings and suck some cock make you somehow a better player than anyone you are sorely mistaken. But keep on bring in Raider into this when you obivously can't handle the heat and think somehow he helps you case with "well he told me something about you" shit. I bet you write in your little diary, oh I got owned on vfdc again for talking out of my ass.. loser!

    ice-9: if my post drives 1/2 of fucking idiots like kiwe away I consider it a community contribution on my part. And you are such a typical asian male wuss, no wonder all the asian chicks are going with white guys
     

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