Woohoo, more movies :)

Re: Degraded Play (here's a contentious topic)

actually I was serious

 

Re: Degraded Play (here's a contentious topic)

why? he didn't say he would never play machi players.

--
"A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"

 

Re: Degraded Play (here's a contentious topic)

Haha...I guess I will never be able to play you then.

odd. This is not the first time you've mentioned your
play style as being machi. Now, I've only ever played
you twice but I don't remember it being that way at all.

I equate machi play with the absolute minimal amount of
anything that can be done in the game and still ensure
that in the event of a time over you'll be ahead.

GE

 

Re: Degraded Play (here's a contentious topic)

Again, I am wondering where everyone defines Machi...

My original impression was the keep away tactic (hehe, Shota doing this at NYG2 was humorous, but he was probably only doing it because he was playing against me who didn't know what to do at the time-- he was doing TA-->run away!!!)

Then it seems that I guess to a lesser degree, but still considered machi (or perhaps "indeed machi") is the zoning game. Get in, get out, bait, hook-line-and-sinker. I have no problems with this type of play (I probably use it a bit too much these days, something I started to do about a month ago).

Hmm... So is machi simply meaning: Waiting for your opponent to fuck up, whether or not you had an effect on it? Meaning that as well as just keeping away, it could be setting up your opponent? Or is it just applied when it has to do with a form of keep away? Again, maybe I'm misunderstanding completely...

If I use my new Taiwan step (CD-->back-dash as I understand it) to bait my opponent, is that considered Machi because I didn't commit to an offense, but rather a counter-offence?

Anyways, I guess it's a grey area generally... At least we all know what "undisputed machi" is, as in the clip.

As for Rodney, I've seen him play really offensive and actually enjoyed watching that (maybe it wasn't as successful as he wanted, this was at various times and before NYG2), but during the actual NYG2, he pretty much was just standing there and blocking (maybe I missed a lot of matches, I'll probably refer to Emil vs. Rodney series to see how those matches were).

Back to Shota, when he wasn't just rushing the hell out of my scrubby non-skillz, he mostly did something like TA-attack, then run away for the whole round... Was funny for me though.

I guess those are what I deam machi.

-Chanchai

 

Re: Degraded Play (here's a contentious topic)

HA!

Maybe I should rephrase what i wrote.

In 2d fighting games, if a player does nothing but wait...
for u to jump over to attack...
a)shoryuken
b)Soma kick
c) STRIKER... the most annoying machi of all.

I can accept condition A n B. but with C....here i am, attacking...and guess what? I AM PUNISHED FOR ATTACKING???????
after striker, comes the inevitable ultimate combo moves..followed by the WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! announcement.

Actually, there's nothing wrong with the striker system. It's meant to help u out in an EMERGENCY. It's just that I 've seen too many idiots who do nothing but stand in the one corner....waiting...waiting...
Some people have suggested that since he's waiting...why don't i do the same?

like GE said, DON'T WASTE MY TIME BITCH!

But i don't mind machi in VF..after all...we all know how to fight machi in 3d...cause it's actually not all that invincible.

Plus...I REALLY would like to play with you. It's not about who is better or stuff. I just wanna see how different people play Jacky that's all /images/icons/smile.gif

Who cares about winning?
That's just gravy.


SummErs's FASTER THAN LIGHTING!!!/images/icons/wink.gif

 

Re: Winning tournaments

The way I see it,
Even if my choice of attack failed this time, there's always another attack for me to do once i get up.
If i lose the round, there's always the next round.




SummErs's FASTER THAN LIGHTING!!!/images/icons/wink.gif

 

Re: Degraded Play (here's a contentious topic)

Wow...didn't think that my one liner would start yet another round of machi argument. As much as I'd like to add my 2 cents in, I have a reading to pick up on tonight, so I have to come back later.

but during the actual NYG2, he pretty much was just standing there and
blocking (maybe I missed a lot of matches,

In defense of Rodney, it may be me who instigated that style of play. Nelson, Adam and I enjoy analyzing different VF players we meet, which is essentially talking behind someone's back *grin*. (we also often stick up our next conspiracy plan against Hiro...how to torture him and all).

Anyway, we more or less agreed that Rodney's weekness is his impatience. I personally LOVE to throw baits here and there, see if I can get any catch. Rodney, though having a very good offense, used to be very prone to those kinds of baits. So I walked up and told him that he should be more patient...and perhaps learn to "wait" sometimes.

Well...Rodney may have taken my advice maybe a bit too seriously...and may have turned to the other extreme.

Unlike Rich though, I actually enjoy those kinds of sub-standard, cheap, seemingly boring matches. Realizing that a single mistake would cost a match (for either player) gets me going.

....maybe I'm strange and belong to a minority here.

 

Re: Degraded Play (here's a contentious topic)

It's all about preference/images/icons/smile.gif

Thanks for presenting that background info Shota, I was wondering when Rodney started playing a bit more than defense. Especially after watching him play on the 16th (though he was really tired then). It was just so different.

BTW, two new clips on the Jap site.

-Chanchai

 

Re: Degraded Play (here's a contentious topic)

khural site? wanna post the addresses for me

 

Re: Degraded Play (here's a contentious topic)

>Realizing that a single mistake would cost a match (for >either player) gets me going.

against even a somewhat competent player, a single mistake in VF3 can cost you the round NO MATTER WHAT style the other player is using!

--
"A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"

 

Re: Degraded Play (here's a contentious topic)

http://www.fsinet.or.jp/~kura/mpeg/yami_tinpan.mpg

http://www.fsinet.or.jp/~kura/mpeg/segaru_uraosu.mpg

 

Re: Degraded Play (here's a contentious topic)

Nah Shota
U're not strange.

I dun mind fighting the so called 'machi' in 3d games. It's a good challenge to try n think of ways to crack open their heads. If i lose, I'll keep on trying(only on the DC though, cause it's free)

But playing 2d games against a machi player....ARGH!
Esp in kof2000.
4get it, it's why i quit kof.
At least in SF, i can parry quite well hehehehhe/images/icons/wink.gif

SummErs's FASTER THAN LIGHTING!!!/images/icons/wink.gif

 

How I learned to love the bomb

okay, kids, it's 6:47 in the AM...I've been up since 4:45
and now I'm gonna ramble.

Wow...didn't think that my one liner would start yet another round of machi argument. As much as I'd like to add my 2 cents in, I have a reading to pick up on tonight, so I have to come back later.

didn't I say this was a contentious topic? This is basically
all good stuff though.

Machi is kinda funny. Someone can hang back for a couple of
seconds and can be lumped in with the guy who honestly doesn't
want to fight you (but wants to win). For me there is the one
term (machi) and then there is the subsets (kinda machi, really
machi and man, that guy is freaking machi!) of varying
hot and coldness.

The reason I have any problems with Machi is mostly due to a
couple of things: First, I rarely see it in toronto so when it
happens I tend to get antsy and sweaty. And yes, Shota, the
blood gets pumping. At the end, when I've beaten the opponent
I'm a little shakier, hearts going pretty fast and my joystick
arm is weak...kinda what I think a mild heart attack must feel
like.

Second, I've mentioned it before. I feel like I'm wasting my
time. I have to travel over an hour just to play the game
against the CPU (not too long I know) and I'm usually on a time
table. I gotta cram in as much VF as possible. I'd rather mix
it up.

But Chanchai brougth up a good point. What is machi play.
Is he machi because he doesn't attack all the time? The reality
is that some skill levels or strategy's don't compliment a very
agressive game, that's why there are counter punchers in boxing.
Their boxing skill is high and they could go in trading jabs and
setting up for the big right hand but they prefer to catch the
opponent coming in.

Same in VF. My "rushes" were always getting defeated in OB
(and in TB too) and I began to be a more defensive player
because of it. It didn't help that most of the Toronto players
were well above me in skill level. My game was almost entirely
reactionary and I had been accused of being machi. Oops. So
being defensive or reactionary is Machi, right?

Weeelllll, When you gotta block you gotta block. And if you're
like Rodney who can really set up tight rushes and throw traps
(as I remember him from Chicago) but are still getting beat it
probably makes sense to control the tempo of the game, making
the opponent be the aggressor (and consequently possibly make a
fatal mistake).

I remember in VF2 complaining about all the rampant low punches
that were becoming part of the game and yupa reprimanded me by
saying it was all a part of control, jockying for position, shutting
the opponent down. so controlling the pitch and conditions of the
fight is a good thing. If you want to win it's an intelligent thing.
Machi does that.

If I do not attack then the opponent must attack or we will end
up in a draw. Already at this point I have been sucessful in
strategy because I am controlling my opponent slightly. I am
setting the pace (even though it might seem the other way
around). Mroeover I stand to have a slight edge over my opponent
as he might be less than thrilled at the prospect at being the
only one attacking. Again, my strategy is already seen fruit.

and Machi is a strategy. no matter how you look at it or
feel about it, Machi satisfies a need, it can assert control, it
can maximize skill levels and it can set up devastating results.

And you know what the most funny thing is? We (royal we?) tend
to localize machi as blocking or the lack of attack. but two
players can't both attack at the same time or one of them is
going to making friends with the floor. A lot. And when you
start trading off with rushes, one person will be attacking and
the other defending or "not attacking". Machi?

Hiro has already mentioned that in his opinion your rush ends
when your move is blocked (in a letter to Chanchai) and that it
is then your opponents turn. This is where I am most comfortable,
convenience machi, trying to block my opponent's rush and looking
for holes. Waiting to start my own little rush. I have found
myself reluctant to move in and Clem and I have traded more than
a few rounds where seconds go by and all we've done are half dashes
in and punches. A casual viewer might say that very little was
going on. He might even say we were "waiting" or "wasting time".

jeeeeez, I'd better sum up here. I think Machi is something that
happens. It gets under peoples skin because the person practicing
it controls the tempo of the game from the get go. Loss of control
or an inequality of effort can be a real piss off. I'm asethetically
minded so I don't care for it, especially from a video point of
view. I won't capture it, I won't download it but it is (and here's
the tricky part) not cheap! (Don't even get me started on the
word cheap! Oi.) Boring? can be. Not as fun? depends who you are
with. Cheap? nope. It is as valid as the next type of play and
sometimes is ferociously intelligent.

GE
-yeah, I know...lot of text very little pay off. Sorry. I usually
delete everything by this point. Aren't you lucky?

 

Re: How I learned to love the bomb

Oh yeah - this is indeed a topic that has been hashed out many many times...it's a good one - too bad other play styles don't get as much attention, eh?

Ok, he's my schtick with Machi - and it really boils down to two things: 1) what defines Machi in my books and 2) how I feel about it when I lose.
I have seen many play styles include waiting for an opportunity to punish an attacking opponent either through exploit of mistake or solving the opponent's (we *all* have them) pattern of play. To me, this not Machi. This is intelligent play and to be honest I would think that most good players fall into this category. You may attack from time to time but there's a hidden agenda to your attacks - they're bait for a (hopefully) expected mistake. To me, Machi is truly waiting, regardless of the situation. And here's a good example. You play cat and mouse with an opponent for the first 10 seconds of a round. You see an opportunity and pummel the opponent with a series of attacks. They have maybe a 1/4 of life left - you on the other hand are sitting happy with more than half your life left. Things are looking up. Now, you'd think the opponent wants to win as well, right? Actually, you think they want to *play* the game, right? But they're not. WTF? They are waiting for you to attack. Standing there. Still standing. Time's ticking away. THEY ARE LOSING!! And they just stand there. Suddenly the oh-so-familiar "Time over!" chimes out and they lose. That is machi, and I don't understand it at all.
What I think gets me worked up about machi play is that it's so easy to analyze from a third person perspective. It's dead simple to watch a machi person play and come up with simple strategies that will surely break they trategy and render it useless. But it's never that simple. You try your new thinking but still lose. This is frustrating - you can see clearly what needs to be done to beat this opponent but have so much difficulty achieving it. As Rich put it earlier, machi is best fought with machi. And if you're not up to a slower paced, kinda boring, imo, match then you're going to get impatient and the machi guy is going to win.

cheers,

<font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>

 

Re: Degraded Play (here's a contentious topic)

>It's a good challenge to try n think of ways to crack open their heads.

not really. just stand there and wait, yourself. that defeats 90 % of their game right there.

and then you've got two people just standing there. which defeats the entire point of the VF game right there.

--
"A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"

 

Re: Degraded Play (here's a contentious topic)

At least in SF, i can parry quite well hehehehhe

I'm not up on my SF so forgive me here but of what use
is a parry against a machi player? Wouldn't that require
a player to attack?

GE

 

Re: parrying in sf3...works wonders against machi

With SF there's defensive parrying n agressive parrying

So if I jump over to attack a machi player who refuse to even come over n do nothing but fireball, chances are the machi player is going to do a shoryuken or some form of attack as a defence.

So as long as i parry the attack while I am in th air, GREAT!...If the fool does not attack n chooses to defend, I'll simply throw him or just other ways to attack.

In a the 2d machi players I've played against, while they might not attack, their ultimate aim is to make u jump over n then, punish u!

WIth parrying...it becomes a much fairer game.


SummErs's FASTER THAN LIGHTING!!!/images/icons/wink.gif<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by SummErs on 10/19/00 08:13 PM.</FONT></P>

 

Re: Degraded Play (here's a contentious topic)

>not really. just stand there and wait, yourself. that defeats 90 % of their game right there.

and then you've got two people just standing there. which defeats the entire point of the VF game right there.<

which is why i prefer to try n crack their defense!

SummErs's FASTER THAN LIGHTING!!!/images/icons/wink.gif

 

Re: How I learned to love the bomb

Excellent responses from everyone, enjoying the reading/images/icons/smile.gif

Hehe, if an opponent is brain-frozen, should we call him machi for losing all site of thought in the game? Just something to consider... Personally, I've run into situations (tons at NYG2 as well as in Sunnyvale) where I'm going in, trying things out, and let's say Rich completely gobbles everything I throw at him, I'm low on life, time is running out... and as much as I want to go in there... I unintentionally just stand there because I'm completely confused, boggled up inside, and worst of all... Scared shitless that whatever I throw at him is not gonna work so I accidentally stand there for 5 seconds boggled in what seemed like a milisecond... But yes, I know... it's really annoying when someone who isn't confused just stands there waiting... It's definitely not that much fun, I totally agree on that... But in some cases, I do enjoy trying to crack their defense or at least trick them into making a mistake... But yes, it definitely is not as much fun as the outwitting matches of rush-to-rush if not execution-to-execution play.

My backdashes fall in the category of "failed-offense account, defensive option from up close" either that or charge the machi bastard and back-dash to see if he takes the bait...

In any case, I guess the term machi has been associated with the term cheap indirectly... Actually, hehe, let's blame the Anti-Chicken-Players-Committee or whatever they were called (yeah, you JEFF aka Ice-9!!!!) jk. (However, you tried to make the statement that throwing in SF2 was cheap... though that is another OT discussion issue, I still stand by that it is nothing of the sort, in fact, it created very very intense matches for those that pursued the type of play). Nah, perhaps many players don't consider machi cheap, just boring/annoying... but then the newcomers like myself get the impression they mean cheap when they didn't at all. Probably misinterpreted it as something that works too well, when in fact, I think the intention was "something that makes the matches much more long and boring." There are people on both sides of the fence as well as on top on machi I guess... Just like there are the supporters for really boring, long opening style Chess as opposed to Sharp and witty and not so boring Chess/images/icons/smile.gif

Anyways, just my thoughts, and I'll end it here so people don't lose their entire attention span on another one of my posts (hopefully, people made it to here).

 

Formatting...

Hey GE,

Are you copying and pasting your messages on the board? Just curious because they have a smaller line width than the normal posts... Just curious/images/icons/smile.gif

-Chanchai