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Your thoughts on VF5FS in MLG/Online tourneys too?

Discussion in 'General' started by Shidosha, Jun 18, 2012.

  1. Shidosha

    Shidosha Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    I_Am_Shidosha
    XBL:
    Ur Not Shidosha
    A few important people have been asking my input on how I would feel in regards to Virtua Fighter 5 Final Showdown being in MLG.

    Our game has been no stranger to highly sponsored events - but we all know the turn-outs have been sub par in the past...

    So what about now? What if we had the chance to get final showdown in MLG? Would we want that?
    If so, what would we do to help push & promote this?

    We know the 'big bucks' are there, would you sign up? what would you do to get others to sign up?

    If you wouldn't want it in MLG, why not?


    We as a community have done a gr8 job promoting and glorifying our own game - and we've always asked sega what their next plan would be to keep the game relevant post E3; this may be one of those avenues we can use to further expand our community...

    Would you do it? Thoughts?


    Also I'd like your input on online tourneys for prizes - you guys know i work for Beyond Gaming and I would LOVE to coordinate something with you guys and so on...
     
  2. FightClubHuBBs

    FightClubHuBBs Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    FightClubHuBBs
    XBL:
    FightClubHuBBs
    Convince them to have me run the vf5fs tournaments and all will be good. lol
     
  3. Shidosha

    Shidosha Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    I_Am_Shidosha
    XBL:
    Ur Not Shidosha
    its possible [​IMG] - but srsly, i need more than just 1 reply!!!
     
  4. Johoseph

    Johoseph Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Lau of America
    I'm not sure if it's just the uneducated fools in the community, but I will say a large part of the FGC kind of hates MLG and "esports" other than fighting games for the most part. So i'm not sure that the MLG would exactly put our game in the good graces of the FGC.

    Although honestly I think with support of people like JWong who's been there, it could go somewhere.

    Honestly though man, I don't know enough to answer that question with any amount of intelligence. I'd be all for it, but don't know what the positives or minuses of it would be.
     
  5. L_A

    L_A Well-Known Member

    Ys of course it would be awesome to have VF as a part of MLG. please let me know how I can help!
     
  6. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer" Content Manager Eileen

    If MLG wants to get behind our game I'm totally up for that, as long as they defer to the rules of the tournament set up to the community. What I have heard are the gripes some FGCs have with MLG is that they screw with the standard rules. At least that's the most I know about it. Other than that I dont' really understand the hate directed toward the esports movement for fighting games.

    Online money tournaments are kinda interesting, but I wouldn't want to fight someone if there is more than an extremely good connection. I dont' want to have to adjust the timing for the just frames because of the connection skipping mid money match. If money is just on the table, and it's not a large amount, I'd be more willing to do something like that though. The pot just can't be too big or the rage would be unreal.

    Let me know what you need man and I'll help out what I can too! MLG I think has Mortal Kombat, or DOA I forget. This would be good for SEGA and us.
     
  7. BLACKSTAR

    BLACKSTAR You'll find him on the grind Staff Member Media Manager

    PSN:
    oBLACKSTARo
    XBL:
    BLACKSTAR84i
    BEWARE: SUPER LONG POST.

    I have a long post which could be summed up with the following: I would LOVE to see VF at MLG, but I don't know if MLG is necessarily the best thing for VF that we are all hoping for. Might be, might not be. For the reasons why, keep reading.

    First, on a side note, I have to say that I disagree with the statement that 'the FGC hates MLG'

    I'm part of the Soul Calibur, KOF, and Marvel communities. Very few in these communities actually hates MLG. As a matter of fact, if nothing else, MLG has received alot of written and verbal praise from these communities for reaching out, at least somewhat. The MLG and FGC communities are closer now than they have ever been before, though there are still alot of tip-toeing around each other since each community is so different.

    While there may not be alot of hate, there is definitely alot of skepticism. I've gone to MLG Columbus and saw first-hand how MLG deals with the FGC.

    MLG has tried to do a really good job trying to incorporate fighting games into their MLG brand, by hiring Arturo Sanchez to direct/advise MLG, and getting good commentators like Juicebox, Bibulus, and The Answer who all know their respective communities. Concerning the tournaments themselves, they are ran on time with minimal hassle (big part due to player cap and pre-reg only, of course), with a DOZENS of setups, publicly posted schedules WITH EACH PLAYER'S GAME posted and organized by time and updated in real time (which is something the FGC REALLY can learn from). The traditional MLG players (StarCraft, Halo, etc) have all seemed to be really nice, or if nothing else, curiously interested in the FG events within MLG.

    This is a wonderful show of effort, but MLG is still having one big GLARING issue.

    While (once again) MLG has tried to do a really good job trying to incorporate fighting games into their MLG brand, they are trying to INCORPORATE fighting games into THEIR brand. In layman's terms, they are trying to stuff a circle peg into a square hole. MLG events, while fun, at the end of the day, are NOT fighting game events. They have more in common with ESPN events than the FGC world. While there is a huge crowd for every type of game available at MLG, and they can get loud and excitable like any other crowd, there is a certain stigma that lingers in the minds of FGC players that they can 'only get so excited' out of respect for the other MLG spectators. While at EVO, UFGT, CEO, or whatever, you are encouraged to get as loud and crazy as we want (that 'hype' the FGC is known for), that level of excitement simply doesn't translate well to StarCraft players (see here:http://shoryuken.com/2011/12/12/gue...pective-on-the-fgc-and-esports-communities-2/).

    There is NO 'bring your own system' area, and the available designated consoles area are on a strict schedule according to the current tournament being ran. What does that mean? Well, if you showed up on Friday, and came for KOF which played, say, Saturday, and you COULD NOT play ANY KOF at the venue on Friday, period. So, if you were like alot of tournament players, who were only there to play one tournament, you would essentially be wasting your time when your tournament wasn't being ran. You can wander around the Bic booth for some Halo casuals, stand in line to play some free-play StarCraft, check out those $100+ Gunner glasses which are really cool, and even grab some free Dr. Pepper, but you couldn't play any casuals in the game you've potentially traveled hundreds or thousands of miles for. And on top of that, if you go 0-2 in the tournament, you can just pretty much go home at that point, outside of watching the tournament in person.

    This is in stark contrast toward FGC events like the recent CEO 2012 event, where not only could you find open stations(when the tournament for the game itself wasn't going on) to stand in line for casuals of your game of choice, they had areas where you can set up your own systems, and had plenty of choices availabe, from indie Doujin games produced locally, to arcade cabinets with old-school CPS2/SNK fighters, to that infamously hype and fun DiveKick game produced by Keits, which is so fun due to how cleverly it implements oft-complained about quips among 2D fighters (divekicking, x-factor, etc), and weaves it into an exceedingly simple, yet surprisingly and deceptively deep system of advantages through geometric angles. Not to mention all the other fighting games we can watch on display for the various streams. At an FGC event, there's plenty for FGC players to do to keep from getting bored and leaving the venue.

    There are other issues within the MLG/FGC thing, especially with the MLG stream. While the quality and production value is very high, and beautiful to watch, even without purchasing the premium pass for HD, the production itself is where the problem lies. In trying to fit the ESPN mold, there is an abundance of dead air, commercials, and non-essential commentator jabber, at the cost of plenty of exciting and high-profile matches being played off stream. Why should we care? Because viewers get tired of these problems and it leaves MLG a bad reputation among the FGC players as a stream not worth watching, thus severely limiting our game's exposure to potential newcomer players.

    I'm not even going to get into the price of attendance, which is another turnoff when comparing to other FGC events.

    _________

    Ok, ok, so I made this long post, right, so what does it have to do with VF potentially being in MLG?

    I mean, c'mon, it was pretty much a dead game until about two weeks ago, so any exposure is good right?

    More tournaments dedicated for VF is also good, right?

    Well, yeah, but it's not that simple.

    KOF is/was pretty much in the exact same situation as VF. KOF was all but dead until last November. Now the game is back with the excellent KOF XIII, and the game has received nothing but praise from pretty much everybody as one of, if not THE best in the series. Alot of new players (including me) has picked up the game seriously for the first time and are learning to grasp the incredibly deep system. KOF now has a small and devoted community that is learning to love the game, and has risen from essentially nothing.

    KOF now gets really good turnout at majors, from 60-80 man tournaments at recent FGC majors, to 171 man tourney @ Final Round XV. But MLG Columbus had 25. And MLG Anaheim had 30. Why, because people rather would go to EVO, or CEO, or UFGT, or ECT instead. And I don't blame them one bit. But now we have headlines (like this:http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2012/...lgs-lineup-future-plans-fighting-game-growth/ ) where KOF is probably going to be dropped from the MLG roster.

    At the end of the day, I would LOVE to see VF in MLG, and I definitely would want VF to SUCCEED as an MLG game, but if MLG doesn't make motions for change, I can see a similar issue happening to VF like with KOF. ESPECIALLY if Virtua Fighter catches on to the FGC events (after EVO) like KOF has. If MLG continues to compete with FGC events on attendance for fighting games, MLG will simply lose. If VF DOESN'T catch on to FGC events after EVO (which would be a tragedy for all of us), then our community will be hanging on a thread to an organization who is only tangentially interested in us. Lets be real, if MLG ever secures Capcom games, not just us, but every non-Capcom fighting game will eventually be thrown out into the cold, plain and simple. And even then, fighting games can NEVER compete with StarCraft (understandably), which is MLG's lifeblood.
     
  8. Alstein

    Alstein Well-Known Member

    There's not enough VF players to make VF work at MLG. I'd rather see a concentration in the FGC- though it means people have to show up and not make this game the next Blazblue.

    Ultimately, the FGC can do just fine without MLG, and MLG can do just fine without the FGC- the cultures are just too different.

    A major FG tourney these days is a lot closer to an anime con than it is MLG.
     
  9. Rodnutz

    Rodnutz Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    XxRodnutzxX
    XBL:
    XxRodnutzxX
    I'm not feeling FS for my own personal reasons, but I'd get behind this and help if it happens.
     
  10. Tryston

    Tryston Well-Known Member

    This is exactly what i wanted for this game! i would absolutely love it if FS became apart of MLG! that would be freakin awesome!
    Shidosha if you somehow make this happen, the community will be in your debt!
     
  11. ajs_

    ajs_ Well-Known Member

    Another long post ahead, but the TL;DR version is: I agree with the bad points by BLACKSTAR, and I don't think VF community will benefit from being at MLG much like the KOF community.

    I'm no name in either the SF or the VF community, but I try and keep up with both communities fairly regularly especially when it comes to hot topics like this. One complaint that is fairly common among the SF and KOF players that attended MLGs in Columbus and Anaheim and was talked about by BLACKSTAR was that the event in not tailored for competitors at all. No casual stations, nothing really to do but watch the tournament. I know from being in the same situation myself, if I'm going to travel to a tournament and pay a $50 entrance fee I want to be able to play as much as possible, especially with the top players that are there in attendance. That just doesn't happen at the venue itself, and really would only happen on set ups back at the hotel.

    One thing that is missed by having MLG overlap with other tournaments, as well, is that the top players tend to be split among the two events and it really kills some of the excitement as a spectator. I want to see the two best players play, especially if it's a US West/US East or US/Japan rivalry. That won't happen if it's MLG Wisconsin with NYC players and SoCal Regional with mostly LA players happening on the same weekend. And that crossover happens A LOT with MLG events, whether on purpose or not.

    Another item about MLG that's not been mentioned that I've seen is that it's a business. They expect more money to be brought in from these communities than the overall prize pools provided. They expect minimum 128 players from their tournaments to help cover all costs of running those tournaments. Can the VF community get enough people to travel to the events 3 or 4 times in a year and get 128 man tournaments? I'm not sure, though I'd like to say yes. I'm not sure even Capcom games could do that given the current way MLG runs its events, however.

    Another point not mentioned is the MLG specific rule sets. I don't know if it's as big of a thing for most events with enough people, but it's still a real hype killer. MLG uses a continuation rule where the results of a previous match in the tournament are counted again if you face the same opponent twice. It's a rule that affects all tournaments and no one likes. The rule has already been covered in depth, and I'm sure anyone who has competed at MLG before already knows about it so I won't go into why it's bad. But it's bad, it's not liked and it's not going to change.

    The big benefit is really the payout. It seems MLG has adopted a top 8 payout structure and if the companies support the games with prize money that increases the overall pot significantly. Really, the players that can make top 8 have nothing to lose as the prizes should cover quite a bit of the travel costs for the events.

    Overall, I think that if the VF community as it is continues to support the large regional events that happen throughout the year, Final Round, ECT, NorCal and SoCal regionals, etc. then the community and prize pools will naturally grow. Capcom players especially like the game because it rewards great reads and fundamentals. Casuals like the game because of dress up and big damage and easy new systems. Being able to play online has helped hype up players like me who don't always have the time to meet up in person and practice, but can set up late night sessions to play others online at the least. Despite some of the dumbing down of the system, the game seems like it's being accepted by a majority of old and new players which is good. I just hope that can continue beyond just Evo and whatever MLG does.
     
  12. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer" Content Manager Eileen

    Just so I understand the points being made and sythsise it into short segments.

    1) MLG tends to schedule events on the same dates as major fighting events. (solution is to just have a discussion about scheduling of events. Kind of a simple problem to fix, especially if we're clear about it from the outset)

    2) no casual set ups.

    -another issue that can be solved by talking from the outset to MLG about the need for there to be casual set ups for the VF or the event won't be successful.


    3) strange rule sets. I don't know what this continuation rule thing is so you're going to have to explain it to me and probably a lot of us if you know about it.


    So far nothing said negative about MLG are things that can't be discussed with them from the outset and negotiated. VF players aren't as loud as some of the other fighting game communities so I don't really think not being able to yell random stuff during a match is going to be a big deal. The vf community is similar to the other FGC but it is different in a lot of ways that I think MLG would work for us better than maybe some of the other games. I think if we approach this with a mind-set of negotiation and communicate what we feel needs to be there for MLG to make bank off us, we'll have a good time.
     
  13. BLACKSTAR

    BLACKSTAR You'll find him on the grind Staff Member Media Manager

    PSN:
    oBLACKSTARo
    XBL:
    BLACKSTAR84i
    the continuation rule is like this:

    in a double elim tournament, if two players battle each other twice in the same tournament, the score from the first set will continue into the second set.

    So if BLACK STAR meets MR. N in first round of winners and loses 0-3, and MR. N loses in round 2 of winners, and the two players meet again in the losers bracket, the score will be set on a first to 6 games, where the score is 0-3, and BLACK STAR has to win 6 matches to progress, while MR. N has to win 3.

    btw, NOBODY likes this rule, not even starcraft players
     
  14. KiwE

    KiwE Well-Known Member

    "Can the VF community get enough people to travel to the events 3 or 4 times in a year and get 128 man tournaments? I'm not sure, though I'd like to say yes."

    Not a snowballs shot in hell.
     
  15. ajs_

    ajs_ Well-Known Member

    Those three things are easy to fix, and yet.... From Tekken 6 to Smash to KOF13/MK9/SC5. No changes. They even brought in people from the FGC and asked what they can do to make the turnouts bigger, those same topics were mentioned. No change. Starcraft players complain about the lack of set ups and inability to stay in the competitor area when they've paid to be a competitor (after competitors are eliminated, they're supposed to leave the area). No change.

    Also, about the scheduling of events part. That hasn't been an isolated incident. It's happened every time MLG has scheduled an event featuring this current crop of fighters. They're booking requirements make it so they need to book 6+ months in advance so they're not going to change. The community events aren't funded enough to go around breaking contracts and rescheduling events so they're not going to change. Again, no change.

    I just don't see the benefit from ANY game competing at MLG except for the payouts of the top players. Even then, that only lasts as long as the field is big enough for MLG to make some money back from holding the tournaments.

    And to KiwE. I agree, although about VF currently. Maybe a miracle happens and it blows up after Evo. I'm really curious to see how the turnout is for the Sega tournament at Evo and to see how big the pool of players is. I hope it hits the 256 cap.
     
  16. Leonard_McCoy

    Leonard_McCoy Well-Known Member

    Were VF to be part of the MLG, it would help grow the community big time and also put our beloved fighting game franchise into the spotlight again where it belongs.
     
  17. Cnul

    Cnul Well-Known Member

    More i think about the continuation rules more i like this.

    Ok it make thing harder for a loser who get sweep in winner.
    But if you beat someone 3-0 in winner and lose to him 0-3 in loser, that means nothing. The score should be tied and with the continuation rules it's exactly what happen.

    Without the continuation rules you are out. With the continuation rules the score is now 3-3 and for win you have to win 6 so it's like a new set after the tie.

    Now yes the loser need to win 6 games to win so it could seem unfair but take a other example.

    Imagine you win 3-2 in winner, now the loser just need to win 4 in loser bracket so with this rules, the way you win or lose is really important. It's not just about winning.

    Usually after a winner final, if the grand final is a runback,losing 2-3 or losing 0-3 change nothing. You still have to win 2 set of 3 games

    With continuaion rules, if you lose 2-3, you have to win 4 games in grand final if you want to be the champion. It's more fair in my opinion that decide to make the loser win 6 games no matter what was his result in the pas matchs

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Match Format
    1. All Games will be Best of 5 Rounds.
    2. All Matches will be Best of 5 Games unless the Players have already played each other in the Event.
    3. If Players are scheduled to play each other for a 2nd time in the Event, their Match will expand to a Best of 11, include the previous Match, and pick up where that Match left off. For example, if Player A beat Player B 3 Games to 0 in the Winners Bracket, the Best of 11 will resume with Game 4 and Player A leading 3 Games to 0.
    4. If the Players scheduled to play each other in the Finals have not yet played against each other in the Event, an initial Best of 5 Games Match must be played. If the Player that came from the Winners Bracket wins the initial Match, they will win the Event. If the Player that came from the Losers Bracket wins the initial Match, the Match will expand to a Best of 11, include the initial Match, and pick up where that Match left off. For example, if the Losers Bracket Player beat the Winners Bracket Player 3 Games to 0 in the initial Match, the Best of 11 will resume with Game 4 and the Losers Bracket Player leading 3 Games to 0.
    5. The winner of a Finals Best of 11 will win the Event.</div></div>
     
  18. Shidosha

    Shidosha Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    I_Am_Shidosha
    XBL:
    Ur Not Shidosha
    well this is precisely why I asked the question:
    KOF had a big boom when it took off and the reason for that was due to players not supporting MLG and letting their game die.

    We've done a great job standing by our game thus far and i would like to know if we would do it again even if "we get caught up in e-sports"

    As for the online, I would more than likely hold regional online matches so there is no issue. plz continue the discussion
     
  19. Shidosha

    Shidosha Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    I_Am_Shidosha
    XBL:
    Ur Not Shidosha
    Also, keep in mind, these are all problems that can be adjusted - which is why i ask. so don't count any possibility out!
     
  20. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer" Content Manager Eileen

    This right here is the mindset we need. Assuming MLG will be unreasonable because they're MLG doesn't really follow. They want money so will probably listen to the community here.
     

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