Zero frame throw?

Yeah, you can still escape, but you must be super precise.

 

Thanks for the correction. Much appreciated ^_^

 

and physic.

 

yes it does require some prediction....

 

I'm still confused about 0f throws. I've seen several conflicting definitions

1) from the brady games guide
0F throws only occur when the throw is guaranteed.


In this definition, 0f throws are basically useless. They confer no advantage over 12f throws.

2) VF5 wiki
Any High or Low Throw executed when the opponent is passive will execute as a zero frame throw. This means an opponent that is either standing still or blocking, whether crouching or standing for low and high throws respectively


This definition has two aspects.
a) The first would mean that if the opponent is pressing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif then a 0f throw occurs. This is stated in this thread by akai, who says:
The opponent gets a 0-frame throw if you are just standing and holding guard.

b) The second would mean that if the opponent is standing and pressing nothing (not even /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif , then the 0f throw would occur. This is stated by strider in this thread who says:
Or not holding guard.

Could someone clarify which exactly is true? I'm fairly sure 1) is true. What I care about is 2) a) and 2) b). Are both correct? Is either correct? Is there a way to test this to prove it?

 

I always thought it depended on distance. Zero frame throws can be executed without guaranteed throw advantage though.

 

Pretty much none of those definitions seem entirely accurate, since it's possible to waste frames and 0-frame throw someone if they are attempting to crouch from standing at small disadvantages. In that case, throw isn't "guaranteed" since they can hit you out of it; they aren't passive unless you consider all joystick movement and G button use to be passive . . .

I'd say its probably more useful for you to find specific situations (backturned, stance cancel etc ) where you can set up a zero frame throw with your character.

 

Zero fram throws are when there is no "grab" animation prior to the throw. They can be escaped but the window is either halved or 1/3 a 12 frame throw. I think 1/3 Zero frame throws and garaunteed throws are not necesarrily related, but can overlap. Zero frame throws can also be performed during the recovery phase of a move. The most notable example of this is as follows: Ur opponent does a move, say throw. U duck. Then u stand and throw ur opponent. If u do ur throw before the recovery phase of ur opps throw u perform 12 frame throw. However, if u wait a fraction of a second longer and do ur throw during opponents 2 frame recover u do a zero frame throw and actually get a "faster" more difficult to escape throw than if u threw as soon as possible. I'm not sure the frames in the example are 100% accurate but the idea remains intact. Still, if ur opponent is anticipating a zero frame throw, they can still enter escapes, but have a much smaller window to do so. Which of course could be further reduced by lag. Hope that helps

 

actually the time window for a zero frame throw escape and a 12f throw escape are exactly the same it's just that you have to react that much more quickly to get out of a zero frame throw.

I still don't get how zero frame throws work or what situations need to be met for them to happen, it's explained horribly (no offense to those trying to explain it) what needs to be done is a video showing zero frame throw situations and why they're zero frame.

The only situations I know that give you zero frame throws is when you throw your opponent during their recovery frames after the action frames of a move. Other than that no idea how you do zero frames.

 

If a move is blocked, there is a 10f window where all throws will be 12f grab throws (for BOTH characters

If a move hits, there is a 10f window where all throws will be 12f grab throws (for BOTH characters

If you've just succesfully evaded, there's a 10f window where all throws will be 12f grab throws (for BOTH characters as of version C)

If a throw whiffs, it will have a 12f grab animation.

In all other situations, throws are 0 frames.

Feel free to correct if I'm wrong or missed something.

 

Sorry for asking the obvious but what are those other situations? . . . I'm guessing the list of when you can zero frame throw is less than when you can't

 

Think of it like this: Zero frame throw is the default. Every throw is a zero frame throw. Except for those situations listed above where they are 12f throws.

 

ah ok it makes much more sense now

 

You'll also get a 12-frame throw if you buffer in a throw from an OM.

Besides that, i'd say Jeneric's explanation is on the money.

 

Jeneric's zen definition ("this is what 0 frame throw is not") is a much better way of thinking about it than "opponent is idle" or whatever.

I'm pretty sure backturned is an additional exception to the 10 frame safety window after hit / guard stun. You might be able to explain stance cancel ~ 0f as always wasting more than 10 frames anyway; i'm pretty sure this is the case for Lei, but I don't care to test the others' stances right now. I think turning forward from backturned wastes less than 10 frames, though, because after stuff like lau p4p you can fuzzy guard to duck a throw and block an elbow, which you couldn't if turning wasted 10 frames.
To test this, I programmed jacky 44p (wait exactly until recovery ends) tap 2g for 2 frames, 2 empty frames, tap p+g for 2 frames. The result after guarding 44p is a throw with no grab animation, or that doesn't clash against jeff's slow-ass 6K+G or fully charged 1K+G ( both of those moves will normally clash even if jeff is at small ADVANTAGE ). If 44p MC's, you cannot duck the throw with 2g even though ostensibly the move is only +5 on MC.
If there's an alternative explanation for this, i'm all ears.

To continue being a punk-ass:

"Distance has nothing to do with throws being 0 frame or not" - Distance DOES affect throw animation (how related this is to whether a throw is 0f is another issue). You will get a grab animation on a throw that connects from max distance against an opponent that is doing nothing (no controller input, standing steady state). You will not get a grab animation if you are right next to an opponent in the same state. It's a very visible and audible difference.

"0F throws occur when the throw is guaranteed" - If an opponent throws at +12 or more advantage from guarding a move (guaranteed throw attempt), it will have grab animation, even if you're right up next to them.

"hit, guard stun, etc is not a throwable condition" - you can definitely throw people out of hit stun. Jeff 6k+g and 1p+k, you can mash a guaranteed throw attempt even on MC without worrying about a whiff like you would with a stagger. I'm not sure there ARE any other attacks in vf5 that leave you at more than +12 and inside throw range on hit. The statement regarding guard stun may be correct, but afaik the only move that's even a candidate is pai's meishou p, which leaves her in stance. Startup and hit seem like the only parts of a move that you're certain not to get a 0f throw.

 

That's a really good explanation KoD and Jeneric. Thanks!

KoD, how did you program Jacky? is this something you can do on xbox360? I'm having trouble with some things, like low throwing lion after blocking his low kicks, and I want to practice against a programmed AI that just does that + evade.

 

device I built. There may be an easier but more expensive way to do it with a mayflash programmable ps2 device and one of those converters.

http://virtuafighter.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/193087#Post193087

otherwise you'll have to hope R comes to console with a dojo mode that includes features present by default in . . . oh, y'know, any fighting game released THIS CENTURY. grrr

 

I agree on this. Im pretty damn sure you can 0f throw an opponent that has entered the recovery part of their move, for example ducking under a high attack and then 0f throwing them out of their recovery. I have this on tape from casual matches. For example I ducked under a punch on occasion and 0f threw opponent /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif