Hit-checking on 6P

I read some older posts about when to and not to enter ducking and slipping stances with Brad off of his 6P, and I'm looking for a little more elaboration.

It looks like the general consensus is that a good Brad player should throw out 6P, see if it connects (and hits) and if it DOES hit, go into ducking or slipping to continue to apply pressure.

1. If this is the case (and can someone please confirm for me that it is/isn't?), when would I do the K follow-up - if I connect with the P, aren't I better off just using the K for a guaranteed canned-combo and a knock-down?

2. If I'm able to determine soon enough that they've blocked my elbow, I'm -6, so it seems like the "moral" thing to do would be to CD into a fuzzy guard. Is this correct?

I understand in both of these cases that the ultimate goal is to do what the opponent _doesn't_ expect, but would still like to know what the best play to make is when all other things are considered equal.

Thanks!

 

How do I get half life on brad, especially from open stance? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

On a more serious note, is there an easier way than /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif to avoid getting ducking/slipping when trying to fuzzy after 6p?

 

I was practicing in dojo last night and noticed the exact same thing that KoD just mentioned. Everytime I would try to fuzzy I would get caught up with entering ducking.

I'm only just now learning the ability to actually hit check how the opponent has been hit with the elbow, and then trying to choose the correct choice out of a minimum three options (block -> guard cancel -> fuzzy, normal hit -> ducking/slipping, stagger/counter -> free kick followup) basically leads to half my life everytime. I know that this will improve with time, but like KoD, it sure would be awesome if there was an easier way.

Myke, when do you get a stagger off of a 6P hit? The moves list for Brad doesn't show any stagger properties for 6P.

 

Lots of elbows stagger on crouching hit, it's not listed in the cmd list.

 

Nice work Myke.

Is there a reason that the Wiki doesn't have anything under the notable throws for Brad, aside from his neutral throw (which is listed as "throw").

Is the wiki editable? I don't mind putting _something_ up there for now if it will get the ball rolling and will lead to people editing and refining it later on.

 

Good stuff, I've been testing and working on a few things that I could share on the wiki too if you like.

 

I'm looking forward to reading what you got to say about my boy. I hope it covers the wonders of 4K and I don't mean wall combos /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

Haha, I was just thinking to myself how great I think 4K is and how that was worth making some mention of in there. That kick dominates in the midrange!

 

Yeah, about that. I just wanted to say that it's possible to just wait until the input window to enter stances has expired and then crouch dash fuzzy. Pressing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif and then /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif again is too many inputs for me. There's also the chance that I'll cancel after a hit just because of the pressure of the match, ruining my chance to follow up with a stance option or the canned kick. I applaud anyone who can actually react to a guarded elbow by pressing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif and then fuzzying, while at the same time thinking about their followup if the elbow hits. I can't.

 

No, I dont think it is possible having tried it myself.

While it does work, and PT always beats throw after blocked Brad elbow, avoiding opponents elbows requires stancewatching and memorizing quite a lot of character-specific stuff. I would rather learn to do the Brad-specific G-cancel fuzzy.

Thanks to myke for the effort of making that table though!

 

Basically, after Brad's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is blocked you can do the following:

1) continue with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and catch your opponent on CH. It wins against mid/high attacks and throws, but it will lose to low attacks.

2) do slipping attack, which will win against throws but lose against most attacks (it may evade some highs, like /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif)

3) do ducking moves, which might go under highs (throws too) but will lose to mid and low attacks, only Ducking /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will win against /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif

4) do phasing turn, which will evade some low and mid attacks, most high ones and throws. It seems that this would be the best option

It's important to remember that, like Manji mentioned, evading with Brad's stances in disadvantage is not to be relied on, unless you're sure of what's coming.

 

I've tested it in Dojo Mode and I've pulled it off. The timing can be rather difficult to get though. Still, I'd rather put the effort forth to get the timing down than to have to put in the extra input. It wouldn't just be with fuzzy guarding, but evading as well. I don't want to have to press /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif before inputting an evade either, especially when I'm concerned with cancelling an evade or entering throw escapes as well.

 

I've never trained fuzzy guarding after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif because it hasn't ever felt necessary. It could be that I'm simply playing online and abusing the fact that lag lets me get away with more, but I also think that the fact that Brad CAN follow up with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif after the elbow makes it much riskier for your opponents to even try and react.

It's pretty rare that I play someone who has the skill to block my elbow, notice that I haven't followed up and that I haven't entered stance, and reacted with options that require me fuzzying to feel safe.

I think Brad has enough options following up his elbow that unless you're playing predictably, you can get away without trying to train the fuzzy guard in this instance.

Of course, if you can add this trick to your books, then that's excellent. It's just not essential, in my humble opinion.

To follow-up Griever's comment, I also find that following up /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif with another /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is quite effective against a low- to mid-level players. It usually takes a couple of seconds to figure out how to react to the elbow, and if I time my inputs like: /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, I catch a surprising number of opponents. As soon as they start to read this effectively and start /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif'ing me out of it, it's time to move to using helltrap or another option. Still, always good to have a lot of options in your playbook, even if some of them are counter-intuitive from a frames-based point-of-view

 

I agree with deathsushi... its VERY rare that someone will punish you for a blocked 6p to the point that you need to fuzzy.. but then again i also play online

hmm i never thought of canceling into another 6p before.. il try it /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Yep, which is why I'm not a big fan of the Phasing Turn /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif flow chart. It pretty much assumes that the opponent will immediately attack following a guarded /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. I believe that a lot of opponents will be afraid of the canned /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or wait for Brad to enter a stance to interrupt though. With enough training, it isn't hard to react to a stance and interrupt with an elbow or a jab. I've gotten away with interrupting a guarded /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif SL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif in the past! So basically, if I wait for the canned /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, Brad is at -18 if it's guarded. If he goes into a stance, you can punish him with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif if your reaction time is slower. That's why I hit check and fuzzy when my elbow is guarded instead of risking going into a stance off of it.

I'll admit that I've perhaps constrained myself in this situation. Coming up studying Brad, I would read KiwE's posts about how good Brad players interrupted Brad's stances and that if you entered into a stance off of a guarded move (This was the FT era), you should hold /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. From there, I had it ingrained in my head that entering into stances off of guarded moves was bad. Now he has a thrust kick and VF5R buffs that make it much less risky and more worthwhile to do so, but back in the day when I started with Evo Brad, it was a pretty bad strategy to enter into stances everytime off of a move. Hitchecking became a big thing with me.

Basically, I got into a routine where I would use the canned /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif on CH and fuzzy on guard. This makes sense from a frames point of view, but I've left out the conditioning factor. Even though Brad is really interruptable after entering stances off of a guarded /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, the opponent isn't always going to try to punish what they can if they come to expect certain patterns.

Sometimes when my elbow is guarded, I find myself using /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. I thought that this was a nasty habit that I should break myself from. However, if you typically fuzzy guard or evade and almost never enter into stances after a guarded elbow (Like me), this might not be so bad. An opponent might catch on to this and try to elbow you afterwards for a CH. This is an instance where I can see the opponent trying to attack immediately following guarding an elbow. After they are conditioned to this, you can use Myke's Phasing Turn /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif flow chart instead of the low punch.

This is another instance where the Phasing Turn /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif technique could conceivably work.

Here's another thing that KiwE taught me: With guarded /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif SL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif will interrupt. However, if you delay going into SL, the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif will be evaded and you can score the Body Break for a combo. Another thing that, as you mentioned, from a frames perspective is really risky. But if you have managed to elicit a consistent response from your opponent, deviating from what's safe can really pay off.

 

That public warning is SOLID.

Ultimately, 1P is Brad's worst enemy, so a good Brad player needs to learn to predict this move and punish it. I think this is an excellent discussion thread and I really appreciate all of the input that everyone has added. However, the bottom line for me comes down to good yomi and conditioning the opponent.

If you know what they're going to do next, or can train them to act predictably, then you can counter-attack appropriately, and do not need to worry as much about flow charts (as I think Libertine was alluding to). This however, is not an excuse to ignore the fundamentals, and that's where Libertine's comments really hold a lot of value for me. I've never managed to get down the timing or the reaction speed to correctly fuzzy Brad's elbow, but learning to do it isn't going to be a bad thing - like I said, it's one more tool in your belt.