Kage Side Turned(ST) Game

Discussion in 'Kage' started by Ytpme_Secaps, May 26, 2015.

  1. Ytpme_Secaps

    Ytpme_Secaps Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Jami San
    To get things started, the benefits of 4p (hold Jumonji) landing counterhit on side turned opponent.

    6p(JU) CH gives you +12 , allowing you to follow up with guaranteed (JU) p,k , this will leave you at +6 (and opponent still ST) from here you can reset with 4p(JU) if they are dumb enough to attack, but really this is when you use Kage;s unblockable ST 6p+k,p, this covers both the high/mid attack options as well as one evade direction, and will leave you with a ST +4 allowing a followup of 2_3p (yougeki) for serious combo dmg, or simply to keep pressing the ST game if you dont think they will attack out. So the flow in short is...

    ST 6p(JU)>(JU)p,k>4p+k,p>2_3p

    a great way to set this up is from 6p+g throw (vault)

    6P+G>3k>6P+G>3k>6P+G etc. etc. A good player will shut this down with side throw escape, but others may get frustrated and try to attack after the 3k...this is what you want... once conditioned to attack after 3k , you follow the 3k with 4p(JU) and when it lands counterhit, you get your whole setup.

    p.s. a quick note on "unblockable" 6p+k,p From side turned if 6p+k is guarded then the followup P is guaranteed to hit, the opponent will not be able to duck in time to guard it. the only way to avoid is to duck the initial 6P+K.

    More to come...
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2016
  2. Chief_Flash

    Chief_Flash Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    T1L ALL AR3 0N3
    Jesus... 4pg > 3k side turn is not a real combo. Please review your rape tape vs. 1fk on how he defeated this tech.
     
    kungfusmurf likes this.
  3. Ytpme_Secaps

    Ytpme_Secaps Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Jami San
    6 p+g to 3k is guaranteed, the only issue is that it does not guarantee side turned, you will only get ST if the opponent crouches or guards after being vaulted (6p+g) if opponent attacks a counter will be given and no side turned will occur. Thank you for clarifying.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2016
  4. Ytpme_Secaps

    Ytpme_Secaps Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Jami San
    BT (back turned) [P][+][K],[K] becomes a natural combo when ST (side turned) meaning if the first part hits the second is guaranteed.

    To get into a BT ST scenario i could suggest...after either succesfull evade or OM (offensive move)...

    [4][4][P] (high 14f) minus 2 on guard allows for possible abare(attack from disadvantage)
    NH (normal hit) is plus 2 advantage allowing BT [2][P] follow up to be "protected" (meaning you have enough advantage so no attack they have can beat yours)

    [4][K] (mid 19f) also minus 2 on guard. NH (normal hit) is plus 2 advantage allowing BT [2][P] follow up to be "protected"

    [4][4][K][+][G] (low 22f) minus 9 on guard is now safe from guaranteed follow up (punishment) If this moves lands NH (normal hit) you will be at plus 5 advantage allowing BT [K][+][G] or BT [2][K] to be "protected" launchers

    If the first two of any of these three moves land CH (counterhit) from ST , a follow-up of BT [P][+][K],[K] is "protected" (meaning you have enough advantage so no attack they have can beat yours)

    P.S. The advantage/disadvantage listed above is for those moves when used in ST only.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2015
  5. Ytpme_Secaps

    Ytpme_Secaps Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Jami San
    PP4P becomes "natural combo*) from ST (Side Turned)

    This will leave you Back turned with a Side turned opponent , at a +6 advantage.
    For 12f punchers BT p+K becomes "abare proof" and natural combos into the follow up k for a combo. If hit checked you can stop after BT p+K is guarded for +0, and a -12 if the full BT p+k,k is guarded.

    But the safest follow up from the BT ST +6 is 2p (14f half circ low) this will be "abare proof" even against the 11f punch. It also is only -1 on guard from this ST situation, so you can often continue to abare (an abare low punch at this -1 can often lead to a ST counter low punch which will give you +9 allowing for an ""unblockable*" PP4P

    What do I mean "unblockable*"? For those that dont know, Side Turned gives an added 3-6 frames of advantage (depending on dmg of the move) this advantage is automatically added on to the advantage display in DOJO, But what is NOT shown, is on top of that 3-6 extra frames, there is also a 3 frame "penalty" on guarding from ST , so normally for me to get a "free" 12f punch , I need a full 12f advantage, or else you can guard/evade in time. But from Side turned even at +9 i can hit you with a 12f punch before you can guard, because of the 3 extra frames it takes to guard from ST.

    But that doesnt mean "FREE", you cant guard in time , but you can crouch or you can low attack under my high punch.
    So its not really " free" , but is is "unblockable*"

    The third strike of PP4p is like this, that is why the Dojo doesnt say its a natural combo, but since the opponent cant guard the third strike in time, all he can do is duck or low attack , and since the third strike is a mid, crouching still leads to a hit , as well as attacking leads to hit.

    If you get a blue flash ST counter hit on the third strike of pp4p , you will be at +10 advantage and Back turned, Kage BT p is 10 frames, So you now would get a "truly free" PP4p all over again.


    p.s. From +6 ST BT, K+G (17f) is your abare proof mid launcher vs. 11f punchers. And BT 2k vs. standing guard . (Both of these are punishable on block, even from this ST scenario, so 2p is you "safest option")
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2016
    oneida likes this.
  6. Ytpme_Secaps

    Ytpme_Secaps Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Jami San
    p.p.s. I keep switching terms between "abare proof" and "protected" , But they both mean the same thing (fast enough to beat opponents fastest possible attack) , not including sabaki, reversal, or high/low crush
     
    oneida likes this.
  7. Ytpme_Secaps

    Ytpme_Secaps Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Jami San
    Using these "unblockable*" side turned attacks may make crouching from Side turned more enticing, this is when SideTurned elbow and 3k play a bigger role, elbow a Side Turned croucher leads to +9 and 3k gives you +11 so that would be a "true free" PP4p or any P~

    And either one gives you guaranteed dmg of they land counterHIT (elbow must be Jumonji for guaranteed dmg, otherwise its +10 (guaranteed throw attempt)
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2016
    oneida likes this.
  8. Ytpme_Secaps

    Ytpme_Secaps Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Jami San
    12 frames to keep opponent "locked" in Side Turned(ST) guard.

    So from ST 4p (guarded) youre at +4 , using jumonji 6p(guarded) your at -1, still ST, using P will continue the ST , since it was 11f from -1.

    With Kage's 11f punch, you can keep opponent in ST by keeping your advantage to no worse than -1 (or -2 if Back Turned cuz of 10f BT punch)
    at+2 his elbow and other 14f moves will now keep ST, 16f moves at +4 , and so on...
     
    oneida likes this.
  9. oneida

    oneida Long Arm of the Lau Staff Member Silver Supporter Media Manager

    PSN:
    oneida_vf
    XBL:
    oneida1
    oooooo cool... :D
     
  10. Ytpme_Secaps

    Ytpme_Secaps Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Jami San
    Every time Kage lands a ST P,k (+7)he has "unblockable" shippu stance P,p follow up, because pk shippu switch turns into +8. this will end in a ST +3 , mix up shippu 6p(19f) for true abare proof half circ, or throw vs. guard/evade , or shippu K+G vs a correct direction ETE.


    ST counterHIT 44p is +7 , meaning BT(backturned) P (10f) is "unblockable" ... BT 2p (half circ low) and BT K (half circ +3 if guarded ST) are yomi options here. As well as BT throw.
     
  11. Jason Elbow

    Jason Elbow Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    FUCK THIS SYSTEM
    XBL:
    Jason ELBOW AKT
    Yeah but isnt the BT p a high? Couldnt they just duck it?
     
    Ytpme_Secaps likes this.
  12. Ytpme_Secaps

    Ytpme_Secaps Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Jami San
    Yes Jason, good question, that is why I put quotations around "unblockable" and "psuedo-guaranteed" It cant be guarded but it can be low attacked (crouch/crouch dash) ... This strange scenario only happens in ST.

    So the whole mix up is...if they stand and guard or evade they get hit by "unblockable" and if they duck or low attack (which is what you WANT them to do,) you get a mid for big dmg

    in that specific BT case, the mid mix up is BT K+G , BT P+K,k

    In short its a 50/50 mix up where both my options are good and opponent's are not .
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
  13. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    @Ytpme_Secaps some good stuff here, thanks for sharing! I just want to point out a couple of things in regards to ST situations, which I'm sure you already know:

    Firstly, whenever the follow-up isn't truly guaranteed and you're mixing up between an "unblockable" high and a slower mid, the opponent can Side Fuzzy Guard (with Throw Escape) to defeat both options. If you're faced against such an opponent, then you need to find other ways to defeat their guard. But if not, then go ahead with your 50/50 mixups.

    Secondly, Kage's [4][K] (hold [K]) into Shippu is a good option when you're at the opponent's side as well. On side CH, Kage is +10, making his Jumonji [P][K] guaranteed. This yields a nice 56 pts damage, remains at +6 and the keeps the opponent ST.
     
    Ytpme_Secaps likes this.
  14. Ytpme_Secaps

    Ytpme_Secaps Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Jami San
    Thnx myke, to get 4k to connect side I need to be at +7 or it needs to be first move after evade or OM . I used to use it just for the free pk on blue flash. I kinda forgot about it actually since using alot more pp4p ( i only recently realised pp4p is side natural combo) ,
    Just last night was working with side fuzzy, I need to familiarize more, but im gettin there,

    I can fuzzy under side throw at -3, but NOT -4, was that your understanding as well ? I used 2g not 33g to do this. 33g did not seem to add anything... right?...ehhhh...

    I will test but from -8 ST is there a mid option that WILL hit vs a fuzzy, eg. Shippu 6p gets fuzzy blocked but regular 14f elbow does not?

    Thnx again, side fuzzy starting to become clearer.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2017
  15. Ytpme_Secaps

    Ytpme_Secaps Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Jami San
    Just watched ur vid again, in that ST 9 , kage blocked 16f mid with side fuzzyTE , would that have also blocked a 14f mid? ... a 12?(pai) ... is side fuzzy limitless (up to 9) in its ability to guard mids?

    ....Pais 12f mid would be guaranteed at st +9 i suppose, but you get my question i hope.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
  16. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    If the mid is not guaranteed then yes (by definition) you can successfully block it. During a -9f situataion, a 14f mid is not guaranteed (14 > 9+3).

    Pai's 12f mid [3][P][+][K], on the other hand, would be guaranteed from ST at +9 (12 = 9+3), but I don't think Pai has such a move to setup this situation?

    It's kind of funny to say it's "limitless" up to a certain "limit" :) but yes, it works all the way up until a mid becomes guaranteed.

    Characters with 12 or 13f mids are really rare, so the common case would be to worry about 14f mids, and those become guaranteed at (14-3) -11f. But in this situation, some characters have their [P] guaranteed (and everyone has throw), so there's no real point in attempting Side Fuzzy TE. At -10f, nobody has a normal standing [P] that's guaranteed, so you'll be able to Side Fuzzy TE here (provided, of course, they don't have a 12 or 13f mid!) as well.

    One last dirty little secret to keep in mind is the almighty [2][P] special low. At +9 this is guaranteed. In open space, you'll lose a bit of health but remain Side Turned and -6f disadvantage. However, against a wall, the [2][P] side hit will induce a stagger and, well, you know the rest.
     
    Ytpme_Secaps likes this.
  17. Ytpme_Secaps

    Ytpme_Secaps Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Jami San
    Got it, just dojo'd . Yeah I realise asking about ST FG being limitless is the same as asking if guard is limitless against mids...

    So yeah , i think its clear to me now. ST FG is THEE WAY to deal with "psuedo unblockable"

    This really cleared some confusion up for me. Thank you

    Now I just need to USE it and stop eating Lion ST pkp
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2017
    Myke likes this.
  18. Jason Elbow

    Jason Elbow Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    FUCK THIS SYSTEM
    XBL:
    Jason ELBOW AKT
    Ok thats like how if lets say my lion fights a Jeff. Jeff attempts to evade and Lion performs a circular High, which hits CH, and guarenteeds a unblockable P K P, but the opponent can 2 P. And if he does i have the option to 3 k instead, which on hit (normal or ch) i can p k p anyway!!! All which keeping the opponenet st!
     
    Ytpme_Secaps likes this.
  19. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    That's exactly how it works.
     
  20. Jason Elbow

    Jason Elbow Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    FUCK THIS SYSTEM
    XBL:
    Jason ELBOW AKT
    But isnt this the same exact situation where side fuzzy guard helps? You know after the ch high circular?
     
    Ytpme_Secaps likes this.

Share This Page