Sarah Weaknesses and Potential Work Arounds

What you say is true when counting frames. But, remember, Sarah is a YOMI character. So when I say "safe", I mean you've mindfucked your opponent enough that they are too afraid to move.

Against lower level players that like to abare at -16, that's pointless. But,.against lower level opponents the only thing you need to worry yourself with is punishing their abare and frame-punishable moves.

Using FS/BS and step should only come into play when you have to out think your opponent. Once you get into that scenario, these "useless" stances become an invaluable tool...

EDIT: Also, Protip - If you end a combo with FL you are at the perfect distance for a FS mixup if the opponent decides to tech at all. If they decide to not tech, well then you're standing right on top of them. You can FS for another knockdown for Oki play, you can FS if they like to duck when teching (or if near a wall that's a GREAT wall combo starter, or ring out option), or if you're unsure what they will do you can FS .

 

i wouldn't argue fs is useless at all, and i use it quite a bit, actually. it's just good to know when it's totally a mindfuck attempt (6pp6, ever) vs. being able to actually beat some options clean (6kp6 on hit). of course, the big secret is 2p kills FS dead, but that does open up 8k as a viable replacement for going to FS... anyway, the point is that anything other than FS p is always and forever a mindfuck move or something you have to have the room to start from a naked FS, there are literally no "setups" for FS p+k unless you somehow CH the last p in kp6 or 6kp6. it's worth throwing out there every so often, but you can't force it like you can the FL 3k/2k mixup.

as far as fl pk as an ender, i'm not sure i see the advantage of being in FS if they don't tech, since there's fuck-all you can do about a rising attack except FS k+g over it as far as i know. or are you able to BS fast enough to get out of range? good to know though, explains the japanese players i've seen using it.

 

Actually, FS + will beat mid-rising attacks on collision since it does more damage (it's just a pain to time since it is so slow) and has a decent amount of active frames. I'm curious if you can setup situation where you can get on the back of someone by going over a low rising attack. I'll test it in Dojo once I get a chance.

 

I just tested that in the lab (was curious myself), FS will hop over the unteched rising low attack but only if you execute the move at the last possible moment. If you do it too early, then the rising low attack will magically spin around and hit you even though you successfully jumped over.

However, even if you are successful at jumping over the opponent and making them whiff the attack, for some reason Sarah will recover in side turned position with your opponent in normal stance waiting to nail you.

So, this is not a good option

Well, this is where the yomi part of it comes in to play. If your opponent doesn't tech, you've just wasted an opportunity for max damage on a combo and now have no options aside from trying to defend a rising attack mixup.

If your opponent is tech happy, then you finishing the max damage combos robs you of the chance to get more damage from the FS mixup.

So, you just have to play it by ear on this....the story of Sarah's VF life

 

Damn, and I here I was thinking I came up with some super sneaky tech ideas! Oh well, thanks for testing Dingo.

Also, maybe it is just me, but I'm really happy with how this thread turned out as I like the fact that everyone is sharing some great stuff here! I feel like I'm closer to a lot of the Sarah players now (despite not playing much recently, only 45 hours to go until freedom!) and I feel like if we keep at it, we can hopefully make Sarah greater force to be reckoned with!

Cheers!

 

I'll be looking forward to some Sarah vs Vane matches Beasty ^_^

 

Here's something I just saw featuring FS in the last round which I found quite interesting.

 

Nice! I haven't been looking in to her side turned game at all, but I experimented a bit with this. The second part of + only gets a 2 frame bonus on ST though, since it does less than 14 damage. It seems like you mix up the real advantage given by side turn and the fact that it takes 3 additional frames for the opponent to guard? So if you land the last part of + on MC you're at +12 real advantage, but your opponent can't block up to 15 frame moves (someone correct me if I'm wrong). So you could do Fl with the opponent unable to guard. FL isn't guaranteed though, I'm pretty sure it needs to hit on MC to combo.

If + hits on MC the opponent can't guard , but they can duck or evade it. is another option if they keep standing and leads into FL at +8 from ST. Which means opponent can't guard FL , so you could do FL (+8 again) into another FL if they keep standing lol. And you always have FL if they crouch guard. I need to look into this more.

 

LMFAO that hilarious troll video of ksbyks I posted as a status update back when he first uploaded it. Proof that there are extremely terrible jp FS players as well.

 

more FS fun frames bullshit and then useful oki information:

frames is frames, except that weird exception of 6pp6. the only thing you're ever "guaranteed" from an FS entry on normal hit is FS p since you're at +3.

if my testing is right, there's 12-15 frames before you can do anything in an FS initiated from 6p+k+g. I got this from being able to BS sabaki p after blocking a -12 frame move but not a -11 or -10. i also was able to counter 9k+g with FS p after a hit with p but nothing else, so that makes right around 29 frames of advantage required for FS p to hit. in theory i should have been able to counter a 19 or 20 frame move if you can FS p after 12 frames but couldn't do so. i think BS becomes active on the first frame so that might be the discrepancy there. or i might just not have been frame-tight.

that said, FS - BS is still interesting against something like a -5 or worse move on block, since unless your opponent's got really good reflexes and/or balls of steel they are unlikely to hit you out before BS becomes active and you might well step outside of the range of any big abare attempt anyway to start up the delicious whiff punishment.

as far as oki setups and FS, the strongest setup i can find is off 3kk and to a lesser extent FL 6kk finishers. entry to FS after either of these gives you enough time to see

a) a tech, in which case you continue to FS 2k/2kk or FS k+g or whatever.
b) not a tech, in which case you quickly transition to BS. you should have enough room if done early enough to make an in-place wakeup kick whiff and punish with BS K. you have a lot more time to make the switch after a 3kk ender as a rule, however. i think if they try to delay the kick you can just walk up and p+k it if you have landed them face up head towards, which these enders should almost always do.

this seems a lot more reliable than the FL pk ender for this purpose, as best i can tell.
.

 

Shiny... Using Slide is very high risk and should be kept at an absolute minimum. I've watched a few of your offline matches and would have a completely different type of advice for you in regard to Sarah and her frames games etc. You are putting entirely too much thought and effort into a bad stance.

 

well, yeah, this data is just mathematically establishing it's not an optimal option in many situations. you have to be stupid to say "fuck i'm at +12, let's do an FS instead of taking that guaranteed 3pk into FL mixup!" i completely agree sarah is at her strongest in the opponent's face, ideally in flamingo. however:

1) it's good to know that point-blank naked FS is fairly suicidal in a frame-oriented fashion, not that i imagine that surprises anyone; if we have frames, we can make some empirical statements rather than just going by the feel of the situation.

2) the threat of FS options after some strings is actually pretty important in setting up some of sarah's mind games, insofar as the fact 2p utterly shuts the stance down encourages 2p and makes 8k counters viable, making 2p a bad idea and then opening up all of sarah's better options thereby. or getting you 50% damage, whatever.

3) i haven't ever used FS from block advantage, actually, but i think it's got some potential as a mixup. maybe it's still a bad idea, i don't know yet. consider these scenarios:

a) a lot of players are going to evade from -6 or worse disadvantage since sarah's so linear, right? so you fs, their evade fails and they have to evade fail dash cancel and that's at least what, 20-odd frames? (can't seem to find the data) plenty of time with 30 frames advantage to dial up almost all the FS options, probably even to fish for BS counterhits.

b) A -5 fuzzy should waste enough frames to at least get into BS sabaki safely if not make FS p viable, figure this from roughly -5 + -5 frames for the cd plus a frame to stand. so a frame-perfect p could maybe hit you. of course 2p, sure, but that's a given when talking about FS. and really, i want people to 2p from -5, i love that idea. forcing people to risk half a lifebar to do 9 damage to you is a pretty solid trade.

would i try this all the time? hell no. but the math makes it look like it's also worth doing every so often. i'll let you know.

FS is almost unarguably a good oki option in the right situations, it's got applications at range, and it's sometimes a good thing to do after a transition starter to keep up pressure or evacuate and make other options more viable. its applications are very limited, i agree. but it's not totally worthless.

 

FS is free to launchers, so if you try using slide on anyone decent, you'll eat massive damage. A lot of attacks will destroy FS, but If they happen to chose a launcher you're fckd. FL is a good tool for Sarah, but you really have to have above average defense, and strong combos outside of FL, to win with her in FS. She doesn't have top shelf damage like, Jacky, Taka, Brad, or amazing tools like Lion, and fast guard breaks like Akira. So you need more defense, movement, and character/match up frame knowledge to excel with her. While every character benefits and needs this, Sarah requires more since she didn't get efficient Sabaki beaters like Aoi's 43P (13 frame double handed mid that staggers), or Pai's double palm (12 frame double handed mid). Her strings are aslo simple and predictable and -18 from 6PK on block is excessive.

Speaking on sabaki's, Sarah's few sabaki's are arguably the worst in FS, as one guarantees absolutely nothing, and works on a limited amount of moves. On top of that the + frames you get form the successful sabaki is less than you get from the smaller frame 4K entry, on hit or block respectively. The other requires you to risks losing over 100 points of damage trying to catch a single limb hand strike, for much less damage then she can dish out from it, if it's successful. Most other characters get guaranteed combos from successful sabaki's, or they have tremendous interruption potential like Vane's 1P, which has far less execution frames than any of Sarah's and is vastly better.

Slide is high risk low reward, it can be used, but it's an uneven gamble in many cases.

 

I think that is the fundamental problem with FS; the reward is just not worth the risk. Free launchers in my face all day is all I've gotten out of FS once I started playing higher rank people. Yes, some people will succumb to it, and it can payoff sometimes but against anyone who spends 10 mins in the dojo seeing it's properties, they'll know to launcher or 2P all day. Plus it's slow enough that someone doesn't have to be reflexive.

Look at it like this:

Considering how long it takes to get into FS -> , I'm a little shocked it's -18 on block. At least if it was -15, I'd use it more (I've pretty much removed it from my game plan). Lion's side-turning low is -16 on block for reference. A move that is faster, and provides a wealth of options for a character with a ridiculous side-turn game is safer on block?! Sure, our's is full circular vs. half-circular, but when someone can also just 2P out of it the same, it just doesn't make sense.

FL is balanced because you have to use slower moves, cancel moves or pre-dominately high chains to get into it. Once you are in FL though, you get a huge bonus. FS requires you to put yourself at a disadvantage in some regards, which is fine, but doesn't repay you for going into that disadvantage.

It would probably be a different conversation if you could go into BS -> FS and FS -> BS since then you could really open up the mind games and use the really powerful moves of BS to force someone to respect FS entries. I personally like using the buffer of BS to setup a BS + versus BS mixup as it catches a lot of people and forces a guess as an Oki. You can't do anything except block when I have that buffer going! However, when you have to go into FS to get to BS, I think it just makes a rough choice to take when you consider her other options.

It's an interesting idea to use FS to setup CH and something that may warrant further investigation, but I have a feeling you're better off using her excellent high game to do that as opposed to FS.

 

throws are free to launchers too. doesn't mean you shouldn't use them occasionally. if you mean that FS at range doesn't give you the option of dash-canceling to an evade or block, that is a serious problem. you can always p or BS to stop short though, so i would argue its more about using that sort of thing as a bait and only rarely going through with the whole FS. it's certainly riskier than a dash forward to close range, and again i agree it's not worth using in preference to more conventional approaches.

6pk being -18 is fucking ridiculous. r*panda didn't believe it was special mid till i showed him because of that. it doesn't even launch worth two shits. if it was genuine mid or it launched on NH then i might think that was justified.

her sabakis are pretty crappy compared to the rest of the cast, no doubt. the only real reason to use p+k is if for some reason you're at less than +5 and want to be safe from abare that is not 2p. in that move's defense, it is fuck-awesome for oki with the right setups, but it's also extra shitty that it doesn't work at any disadvantage (technically i think it shouldn't even work at even if the frames are the same as version C). i do think you sell the BS sabaki a little short, though: it guarantees at least BS p and that gives +12 frames into 3pk, so it's basically a 50 damage, +5 FL entry. i've seen it sabaki slower moves and guarantee bs k, but that is much more situational.

the general feel i get is that sarah's kind of crappy at everything except for these very specific edge cases in which she absolutely dominates (FL, 2p punishment, arguably okizeme) so it's about forcing those situations on the opponent as much as possible with her otherwise substandard toolset. her throw game is decent too.

also, i did find the frames on the failed evade dash cancel: http://virtuafighter.com/threads/offensive-evade-cancels-and-you.17064/#post-344636. so looks like you can figure on being at about +11 + whatever disadvantage. figuring for 12-15 frames for attacks to be available, you could be in FS at anything from +2 to +10 if the math works out. if they don't evade cancel i believe it's a guaranteed 20 frames to recover, so you could be up into guaranteed attack range (figure a -9 attack + 20 frames - 15 startup giving you +14). must test.

 

Throws have guaranteed attempt situations, forward slide does not sir.

 

[quote="FGBeastEG, post: 361112, member: 13379"

Considering how long it takes to get into FS -> , I'm a little shocked it's -18 on block. At least if it was -15, I'd use it more (I've pretty much removed it from my game plan). Lion's side-turning low is -16 on block for reference. A move that is faster, and provides a wealth of options for a character with a ridiculous side-turn game is safer on block?! Sure, our's is full circular vs. half-circular, but when someone can also just 2P out of it the same, it just doesn't make sense.

It's an interesting idea to use FS to setup CH and something that may warrant further investigation, but I have a feeling you're better off using her excellent high game to do that as opposed to FS.[/quote]

keep in mind that FS 2k switches into FS 2kk, which literally guarantees damage if connects and that 2k itself kills single evades dead even if you switch to 2kk.

that said, fuck lion, yo.

as far setting up 8k, you get that both from FS entries and from her high game. 3p sets up 8k really well, but so does 6kp; the former because it threatens FL on block, the latter since it allows a solid FS entry (more so on hit). so i totally agree, i just think it's a synergy between the two situations. trying to use naked FS to force 2p is by no means a good idea.

 

so you never, ever use p to throw? also: throw escapes.

please don't misunderstand, i am not trying to say FS is godlike. it isn't. i actually got into this by looking at arguments earlier in the thread that far overrated its abilities. but it's got uses, and if it stuffs evades as hard as the math suggests it does then that gives a very linear character some additional firepower to exploit against that situation.

 

Agree on the F lion yo! I would agree with you about FS ~+ in most situations but there are a couple of problems.

1) The large gap in frames regarding the transitional difference between FS , FS and FS ~+ allows for perfect defense option selects. Basically, start high guard, switch to low guard and then evade. Maybe it's because I'm exclusively a Sarah player that I see this and use it against other Sarah players when the lag isn't bad, but no good mix-up can claim to be effective when there is a perfect counter. Especially considering it's not hard to do unlike the side-turn mega defensive stuff that was posted before. I'd be okay with it if it was safe, but if they evade FS ~+, it's a guaranteed side-turned launcher they are hitting you with! If they block the low, it's a free launcher! Literally the only safe option is FS which if they evade is near death as well.

2) Still super slow for all those moves = launcher in your face against anyone who trains themselves a little to react to FS

I dunno, maybe I'm way too flowchart and everyone has a read on what I do so these things don't work for me and everyone else who uses them has a far superior ability than mine to mix things up. Hell Maki, made a ridiculous comeback against me in our 3rd game, 5th Round that had me question my validity as a player today.

However, when I just look at the objective evidence, I can't help but ponder how to put FS to good use against a good player in light of Sarah's other options. In regards to the throws, someone has to guess to abare a throw with a launcher, someone can react to FS with a launcher which is far worse!

Yeah, I was sold on FS when I was playing at the lower ranks, but now that people have had time to learn the system and match-ups, it's clear that FS is a gimmick that maybe some people can apply. Even when I watch the top players (JP or US), rarely do I ever see them use FS for anything other then tech trapping (which makes it completely safe) which is what we stated at the beginning.

 

I'm going to go on record and say that Step and FS are by no means "gimmicks".

Like a large majority of the stances in this game from a majority of the cast, it has its painfully obvious weaknesses. However, last I checked, Jacky can be elbowed out of SS, Pai can be launched from her crouch stance, etc etc etc etc...

Stances aren't safe (most of them), they are meant to be mindfucks. Some stances are safer than others, no doubt. But to write it off completely just because it can be 2P'd to death is non-sense.

The cornerstone of your character should always be the basics of the system. Sarah can win a match without ever going into FL. Stances add an extra layer of mind games. Sure your opponent can launch you whenever you go into FS, but the trick is them never knowing when you're going into FS.

My 2 cents...

EDIT: However I am going to add that BS is useless. The simple fact that you can only get to it from FS gives the other guy almost a full second to respond. Oh well...