dear god, i've been doing this all wrong (ds sabaki and throw stuff)

so i play vanessa as a secondary and i've always felt a little more comfortable in os vs. ds. started fucking around last night in training and holy shit i've been doing ds all all wrong. so take this opportunity to learn and/or point and laugh if you knew this shit already.

1) fuck me her sabakis are amazing. i had been used to sarah p+k which works from literally no disadvantage ever, but it seems like 46k, 46p+k and 1p all basically activate from the first frame. fuckers beat throws too so goodbye nitaku. as long as you are -9 or less and you pick the right sabaki you win. sure, you've got to pick the right one, but like 90% of the time that's going to be 46k against most people playing elbow/throw games until they figure out to use circulars or kicks. even then it's such a huge threat.

q: what the fuck do you do after a 46p+k? just kk? seems like there should be something better than that though.

2) 44f+p, hot damn. guaranteed 3k to keep them honest, sure, but 4p and 6p+k+g are sooo good. never used this throw much but i'm going to have to start.

3) i don't think any of her throws are techable at all, are they? and at least kk finishers and 63214f+p give you face up head towards and mid kick sabaki all day. don't know what to do about low wakeups from DS yet though, can't just 9p them like in os i guess.

 

1) yeah, I find most sabakis/reversals have very quick activation times, but there are exceptions. Like Sarah's.

Q) virtuafighter.com/combos/index.php
Two combos listed in there for 46p+k.

3) what throws are untechable..? nvm.

 

seriously, i wouldn't do half the dumb shit i did in DS if i'd known about that. i just sort of assumed sabakis took a nerf at some point. i swear you could use sarah's from disadvantage in vanilla, but looks like i'm wrong (sabaki frames 13-23?). Ver C. data says first frame for 46k and 1p for vanessa, yeah.

did those change for final showdown? if not, they really ought to be in the main movelist. i assume they weren't ever published but that is kind of important to know.

 

I see you haven't encountered Aoi's or Pai's +

 

The other pixies (Aoi & Pai) can outpoke your sabaki game for sure, but they don't do as much damage as you do as a Vanessa.

Have fun abusing the foundational metagame of VF. That's what this character was built for.

 

Yes her sabakis are amazing. Each sabaki got something special... got + on guard. U can mix up afer this sabaki with ws throw or low throw (for ppl who fuzzy or CD fuzzy).
parries all low (not full circle) and make whiff all highs.
if it parries it s a combo launcher. The following combo is basically -> or
Have fun =)

 

Nice that you are doing well with Vanessa, but please don't use "F". This is virtua fighter, not DOA. It's G.

generic thoughts:

46KP both hits hit high (as does most everything else useful in DS imo). Also sabakis, while obviously useful at times, are not invincible. Sabakis have windows when they actually parry something, and that window is usually not the entire length of the animation. This means that they can sometimes, with proper timing, be interrupted with moves they are supposed to sabaki even. (Good example of this is Lei's Koko P, its supposed to sabaki high and mid punches, but he can be jabbed out of it on reaction if you wait til the last moment.)

Its not so much about the activation time but rather a question whether the sabaki window starts from the first frame or not. Otherwise the move can be interrupted before the sabaki properties actually become active.

Also, when both players do sabaki thats supposed to work on the other players move, the one that started later wins.

I tested and you are correct, it does not sabaki fullcirculars. However, worth to note that this is a change from VF5 vanilla where the movelist says that it sabakied sweeps also.

 

Although the game doesn't tell you this, I have always thought of sabakis as having two classes: Offensive and Defensive. Offensive sabakis have later activation windows and are designed to be used from advantage. They allow you to use a move that isn't necessarily frame-tight but will still beat (usually) a 2P if advantaged. Kage's 19f 4K used to be an Offensive sabaki in vanilla (not anymore.) Defensive sabakis have nearly immediate activation windows and are used from disadvantage to steal back a turn. Kage's JM P+K is a defensive sabaki.

 

Or mid unsabakiables in general.

Or an opponent that knows more than one launcher for their character, for that matter.

Which reminds me... hey everyone, DS sabakis are fun! So let's play a game, ok? All we need is two coins:

• One coin is the "cute" coin. Heads is DS , tails DS .
• The other coin is the "meanie" coin. You pick a VF character and assign their mid punch or elbow floater on heads and the mid kick or knee on the tails, ok everyone? So if your meanie is Akira heads is and tails is , ok? Jacky would be heads and tails, or something mean like that, ok everyone? Let's not go through the whole bunch of meanies here, they are ugly and they stink and sometimes they have mid launchers that vanessa can't sabaki which is not fair and those meanies stink even more - let's have some fun instead!

FUN, FUN, FUN! Flip the two coins!

• If both the cute coin and the meanie coin land on the same side then vanessa can sabaki the meanie! SUPER HAPPY FUN TIME! You get to note down, preferably using a sparkly pen, how much damage vanessa does. It's easy! 35 damage for heads, 62 damage for tails.
• If the cute coin and the meanie coin land on diffrent sides then its SAD PANDA BUMMER TIME. Vanessa can't sabaki the meanie's attack and you have to write down (use a sad color, like blue or black) how much damage vanessa recceives. The numbers depend on the meanie but you can find them easily in http://virtuafighter.com/combos/index.php. So for example, if the meanie is akira and his coin landed on heads vanessa receives 82 damage; if his coin lands on tails vanessa receives 74 damage. Or if the meanie is jacky, heads vanessa receives 84 dmg, tails is 99 dmg. Etc. for other meanies.

The game ends after you flip 10 coins - so you can have a lot of fun! You win if vanessa has dealt more damage than the damage she received!

Have fun with vanessa sabakis everyone!

BTW let me know if you win, ok everyone? I'll put you in my COURT MARTIAL DRILL INSTRUCTOR vanessa sticker book!

Ganbatte mina-san!

 

while cute, this analysis does ignore a few things:

1) successful 46p+k nets vanessa damage and +7 advantage, somewhat skewing the risk-reward profile. while it's not guaranteed damage, it is riskier to use a p launcher relative to a k launcher.

2) vanessa's exciting third option: block/evade! since vanessa's sabakis are so skewed in your favor to launch against, there's all the incentive in the world to go launcher, sure. i very much like being at +12 to +15 or more, thank you.

3) a new challenger appears! DS 3p. oh hai. so i can sabaki, or i can DS 3p and beat 17 frame launchers anywhere up to -6. does it do a lot of damage? nope. but it always wins and it gets me to +6 on counterhit. also, many of the double-limb unsabakiable launchers are actually slower (sarahs 9k, for example), so this works even deeper into disadvantage against those. and of course it beats throws, so oops no nitaku.

reducing the situation to a loaded coin flip is hardly accurate.

(as an aside, i've noticed there's a tendency on vfdc to assume that when someone points out something is really good for there to be the assumption that they are claiming to have discovered some unbeatable akuma ssf2tx technology. maybe it's just the internet's inability to deliver tone of "voice" or something. her sabakis work from way down in disadvantage and 46kp indisputably defeats the elbow/throw mixup at -2. it also distorts nitaku into a much more complex situation since the sabakis negate throws. this complicates the opponent's choices in a way often advantageous to vanessa. that's all)

 

Nice, you are advocating another low damage high attack to cover for her high hitting sabaki damage deficiency!

It would appear you haven't yet encountered low punches, sweeps, low combo starters or, dear god, tech-crouching mids either.

I have an improved FUN game for you! You just need to replace your two coins with two 4-sided dice (it's a pyramid, silly!):

• Add your DS and evade/block to the cute die. So 1 = DS , 2 = DS , 3 = DS , 4 = evade-(crouch)dash-guard
• Add a throw + your choice of mid unsabakiable, low combo starter or tech-crouching mid for the meanie die. So 1 = punch/elbow CH floater, 2 = kick/knee CH floater 3 = low CH floater/mid unsabakiable/techcrouch/whatever, 4 = throw.

Comparing damage gets a little trickier:

• DS does 15 dmg, tops; evade/block deals, let's say throw damage. So average throw damage * 2/3 i case the opponent breaks your throw... that's 37 for punishing highs and 37 for punishing lows if i'm not mistaken. If that's too low for you, have vanessa land her 17f punisher instead! So 74 dmg when punishing standing and 55 when punishing lows. Don't worry if it's not necessarily realistic - have fun! DS Vanessa is awesome!
• You have to find the meanies' low combo starter/mid tech-crouching/unsabakiable/etc damage on your own; same deal with their throws. You can use http://virtuafighter.com/commands/ for reference. For Akira i'd pick for 78 dmg and his max throw dmg from each direction* 2/3 just in case you remember to break a throw direction so... something like 37. For jacky let's use his flipkick for, say, 62 dmg, and throw for 35 dmg.

FUN TIME! Roll the two dice. Note the damage vanessa inflicts or receives (don't forget to use a sparkly pen for vanessa and a boring color pen for meanies):

• A cute 1 wins a mean 1 and 4. It loses to a mean 2 and 3.
• A cute 2 wins a mean 2 and 4. It loses to a mean 1 and 3.
• A cute 3 wins a mean 1,2 and 4. Vanessa's is like that, and will always beat akira's or jacky's or any other move, regardless of the advantage or spacing! It also has sparkles! Believe it! It loses to a mean 3. Unless the 3 does not tech-crouch in which case wins again! AWESOME!
• A cute 4 wins a mean 1,2 and 3. Unless the mean 3 is circular, which is a bummer. It loses to a mean 4.

Roll the two dice another 9 times. Compare the total damage.

Let me know when you win the game, ok? Don't forget to tell me your best dice rolls so that i can put them in my COURT MARTIAL DRILL INSTRUCTOR sticker book!

Have fun everyone!

 

I just started using Vanessa again after a long break, back in vanilla the sabaki's are the reason I started using her in the first place , they make life much easier but watch out for those fast doublehanded strikes like Aoi's
I don't use DS that much but when I do I mostly spam sabaki's before and after everthing
80 percent of XBL don't know how to deal with it so why not lol, I never normally use 1P though it's better to block lows for the punishment damage.

 

I think the whole point of the Sabakis is to make the opponent think twice and use more moves. The more your opponent has to respect you, the easier it is to start offense on your end. My guess is that's the point of DS in general. Sabakis also open up the throw game if they try to bait it out with doing nothing, and Vanessa's throw game is good. (not best, but good)

Also, wouldn't you use those sabakis in disadvantage anyways? Disadvtange by its definition means the expected value of those situations is you take damage.

I think the conclusion is you're not supposed to spam the sabakis, but they have their uses,n though it's dependent on the opponent.

Right now I'm noticing that I use DS mostly on opponents who evade/attack with small stuff, and OS on bombthrowers or folks who don't necessarily attack all the time (which describes my Jeff)

 

must be a lot of work to keep moving goalposts, yay! did you add vanessa's 1p in there for ducking highs and taking care of low punches and low combo starters? hell, if we've got low combo starters, i suppose i should add guarding low in too? jesus, we're up to six-siders now aren't we? and oh wait some of the sides have additional complexity like being two fisted or not tech crouching or whatever. fuck, this is complicated! it's like a shitty dice-rolling metaphor fails to capture the complexity of the situation or something! golly!

again: my original statement only inferred that 46pk was extremely strong against elbow/throw mixups until the opponent figured out to do something else and it's kind of nice to sometimes be able to keep up pressure from disadvantage. is VFDC seriously this up its own asshole? i wonder whatever gives this excellent game such a reputation for being impenetrable and unfriendly?

 

Cool story bro! In fact, since you like stories so much, i have a nice bed time story for you too. It goes something like this:

"Once upon a time there was a very beautiful and gifted girl. Her name was Vanessa and she had all the answers. All of them. Because you see, she possessed the gift of clairvoyance. That's the ability to see into the future y'all! Anyway, she met a bunch of meanies who tried to hurt her. Meanies would try to hit her tummy or her ankle or throw her around or dear god knows what else! But she knew in advance what they were going to do and she brushed them away with her magic feather so nobody could touch her. And vanessa lived happily ever after, the end."

If you want to add d6 or d8 or d20, go ahead! Just let me know when you win the damage game, ok?

 

I think everyone here knows that sabakis aren't meant to be spammed unless your opponent is spamming sabakiable stuff.

DS in general isn't about doing big damage, it's about hitting more often than your opponent. That's what DS's toolset is suited for.

 

I think the sabaki is a good anti spam, if a guy always spam with a while u wakin up, if the guy spam with a string who finished with a use the same for the 2P spammer (P]It s good to take advantage during a pressing but not good when u abuse of it

 

Do you know what's a really good anti-spam technique? Solid fundamentals and hitchecking.

 

U te right i totally agree with you. But sabaki is definitly a good way to deal with it too.

 

IMO you can have both solid fundamentals and hitchecking and sabakis and still be beaten by spam over and over again: what's coming is important but not more than when it's coming.
Predictability is what you can deal with easily.
About sabakis I agree with Alstein, it's not always about the damage ( if you can predict the hit you may have better damages with launchers) but it can make the opponent hesitate and/or limit his arsenal (ie he might not be able to regain priority by outspeeding you).