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EVADE advantage Master List

Discussion in 'Dojo' started by Ytpme_Secaps, Jul 30, 2017.

  1. Jason Elbow

    Jason Elbow Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    Its ok now...
    XBL:
    Jason ELBOW AKT
    Oh my bad. I assumed because wolf's [3][K] was a half circular mid that made it a "sidekick". Thanks for clearing that up.
     
  2. Jason Elbow

    Jason Elbow Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    Its ok now...
    XBL:
    Jason ELBOW AKT
    Well arent elbows the same?
     
  3. Jason Elbow

    Jason Elbow Well-Known Member

    PSN:
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    XBL:
    Jason ELBOW AKT
    I gotta thank you. If it wasnt for you taking the time to teach me lazy throw escape i would not have implemented it in my game play. I still got a lot to learn. But im trying. Any info you give me ill gladly accept!
     
    Ytpme_Secaps likes this.
  4. Ytpme_Secaps

    Ytpme_Secaps Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Jami San
    Almost all are with some exceptions.
    But remember if they have an elbow string, (Lion 6p,p) and they USE it, that can interupt your post evade response.
     
  5. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Because evading a P or 2P cannot be punished in the traditional sense. Same goes for 6P and 3K, especially those with canned follow-ups for reasons already stated.

    Instead of "punish", perhaps you meant "respond" and with that I do agree. Learning to evade-check -- to be able to recognise the type of attack you evaded and respond accordingly -- is a valuable skill. Crunching numbers can bring awareness to the situation at hand in order to improve how you respond.

    Intuitively, some people might think that it's always their turn to attack if the evade is successful, and while it may hold true for the majority of attacks in the game, there are situations where it isn't, and the Standing [P] is one of those. So with that, let's take a closer look at the numbers:

    Resulting Frames from Successfully Evading a [P] from Disadvantage:
    Code:
    Disadv  Result
    ==============
      -1      +3
      -2      +2
      -3      +1
    --------------
      -4       0
      -5      -1
    --------------
      -6      -2
      -7      -3
      -8      -4
      -9      -5
    Firstly, between -1 and -5 you theoretically shouldn't be evading as a defensive technique. Why? Because it's laden with a lot of risk for little reward when compared to the Fuzzy Guard (-1 to -3) or Crouch Dash Fuzzy Guard (-4 to -5) techniques.

    So if you accept that you should only be evading at -6 or worse (when 'true' nitaku kicks in), then you can mentally discard half of the results to clear up your head space. However, you'll notice that your resulting frames from -6 or worse don't look good at all. You start at -2 frames disadvantage and it goes downhill from there.

    Therefore, suggesting that you can "punish P with an evade" can be misleading, and this is where the evade-checking skill comes into play. If you're evading from a large disadvantage, and the attack you evaded has a short total frame duration, then chances are your successful evade was not rewarding, as evidenced above, so you should respond appropriately.

    In some cases, your response after the successful evade should be a defensive one, and this is where double evades start to come into play because the moment you've recovered from the first evade you're already disadvantaged. Double evades (or triple for the brave) are effective when you recognise that the attack you initially evaded (such as [P]) has a canned follow-up and your opponent is willing to use it.

    Example: Jacky's Smash Upper
    Now let me share a practical situation you might apply this knowledge in to help you problem solve for yourself. Say you're facing a Jacky player who's getting a lot of success out of Smash Upper ([2_][3][P]) which has huge reward if CH (approx half life combo) for little risk (-6f disadvantage). Let's say that one of Jacky's favourite ways to initiate the Smash Upper is from a [2][P] CH which starts him out with +7 advantage. One thing you can do is Guard and gain some good advantage, but what happens if you successfully evade? Let's check:
    • Smash Upper total frames: 43
    • Frames for successful evade: 23
    • Your disadvantage: -7
    Result = 43 - 23 - 7 = +13

    Having +13 frames advantage at Jacky's side is a great situation to be in, and for many characters this represents some good, guaranteed punishment.

    In conclusion, being aware of the resulting frames is key to understanding your options from a successful evade. So while I previously said it's better to know the formula so you can solve your own, specific problems (like the Jacky Smash Upper example I shared), having awareness of the universal cases like P, 2P, etc, is still a good thing.

    For some characters, their [P][K][G] is actually shorter in total duration (i.e. recovers quicker) than their standing [P]. This has the potential for some characters to gain even more advantage should the opponent successfully evade. All the details can be found in the VF5FS PKG Cancel Rankings thread posted by @akai in 2012, and be sure to read my lengthy explanation and breakdown in the first reply if all of this is a bit over your head.
     
    Kruza, Tricky, MarlyJay and 1 other person like this.
  6. Ytpme_Secaps

    Ytpme_Secaps Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Jami San
    I said punish, I meant punish. After guarding P (-2) if I evade their 6p, I get +11 (I punish with Pk, or pp4p)

    In regards to evading at low negative,I couldnt disagree more. It a high risk/high reward scenario.

    At low negative -1 thru 3 especially, the reward is greater than ever. If you evade the elbow at -1 everyone gets PK Punishment , thats hardly low reward imo.

    A well trained ETE that can still react perfectly on evade would actually be fairly low risk with a high reward if opponent goes bigger than P or 2p.
     
    Stl_Tim likes this.
  7. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    I was speaking about the case of evading a standing [P], for which there is no reward, and in fact is actually the reverse. So evading a standing [P] from -6 leaves you at -2, which is the exact same situation had you guarded it instead. But I digress.

    I still maintain that evading during small advantages is inherently high risk (which you can reduce with dash cancels, but that's another conversation) with little reward. To elaborate, you just guarded a standing [P], leaving you at -2 and you decide to evade. What happens next?

    Here are all the things that can go wrong:
    • You eat a full circular CH, end up side-turned (maybe), and have a guaranteed attack on your side to deal with (maybe); or
    • You eat a half circular CH, potentially a combo starting move, and lose a good chunk of life; or
    • You eat a throw (66% chance) for which you can lose a good chunk of life / the round / the match (depending).
    Here are the things that can go right:
    • You get a guaranteed [P]-string natural combo from the side, provided you have a [P] with 11f exe.
    Simply put, you're comparing a potential PK (29 pts) or PP4P (36 pts) damage against a Throw (50 ~ 70+ pts), Half Circular Combo starter (60 - 80+ pts) or worse, if unsuccessful. To me, that's high risk for little reward.

    Alternatively, if you simply Fuzzy Guard at -2, then you guard all mids, potentially make high circulars / half-circulars whiff, and make all throws whiff. To me, that's low risk for high reward -- the reward coming from punishment of a whiffed high or throw, or potentially an unsafe mid.

    Additionally, for the [6][P] case, most (if not all) the cast have canned follow-ups which, when used well, should make you hesitate with an immediate follow-up and so this effectively diminishes your reward even further. As I said previously, your mileage with this may vary, but hey, if your opponent let's you get away with it then by all means. Of course, as the attacks lengthen in duration then so does the potential for reward, and that's the case I tried to highlight in the Jacky Smash Upper example.

    Thanks for bringing to light some of the universal situations that many people will encounter. Now, we can argue semantics if you wish with what's considered high/low risk, or what the recommended "textbook" defensive options might be at varying disadvantages, but that won't get us anywhere. At the end of the day, the information is out there and how people decide to use it to improve their game is ultimately up to them.
     
    Kruza and Tricky like this.
  8. Ytpme_Secaps

    Ytpme_Secaps Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Jami San
    Every scenario that "went wrong" on my low disadvantage evade requires opponent to execede their advantage "allowance" which opens up huge meta yomi for me.

    In the "just fuzzy" way, Im only pushing the situation to the next guess, not advancing on THIS guess. (Unless opponent throws at low adv. and I can punish whiff or abare launch, and that rarely occurs)

    I agree that the system is built in a way thay "says" Fuzzy untill -6 , it is absolutely safest option, I agree, sensible, possible whiff reward, almost no risk (delay throw/low throw). But not the best option if you are reading your opponent imo. If I can bring you to a 2 way guess on less than nitaku, Ill take it. ( -2 i want to evade, if you do anything but P or 2p, I can abare.) That becomes a workable Evade/abare yomi mixup.
     
    Kruza likes this.
  9. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer" Content Manager Eileen

    no. Some have more total frames than others.
     
  10. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer" Content Manager Eileen

    I think that's this conversation too. IMO if you're thinking about evading you got to be canceling it and should come into our discussion of the usefulness of these techniques. Canceling is most powerful at these frame ranges because you can crouch dash into launch. It's one of the ways I set up 9K's.
     
    Ytpme_Secaps likes this.
  11. Jason Elbow

    Jason Elbow Well-Known Member

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    Its ok now...
    XBL:
    Jason ELBOW AKT
    No what i meant was how not everyone has a elbow in the traditional sense. Like Wolf. The closest attack he has to an elbow- clas move is either [1], [3] or [6][P]. I was making a comparison to what you said about everybody's [3][K]not fuctioning the same execution and animation wise.
     
  12. Ytpme_Secaps

    Ytpme_Secaps Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Jami San
    Agreed. My ETE is actually a EDCTE , im currently practicing getting better at post evade attacking when using ETE/EDC (when im doing the cancel/TE I often "miss" my post evade response)
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
    Tricky likes this.
  13. Ytpme_Secaps

    Ytpme_Secaps Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Jami San
    Off the top of my head I can only remember a couple "different" "elbows" lilke Akira 's 14f mid (3p) does NOT grant extra advantage vs crouch opponents , his 66p gives same adv both ways. (Granting extra adv. Vs. crouched is a "staple" of the true "elbow" ) and the "true sidekick"

    I believe LeiFei 's is diff also. I dont know of Wolf's.
     
  14. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer" Content Manager Eileen

    Everyone has an elbow. The command isn't 6P for everyone though. They still all have elbow class moves even if the inputs vary. Wolf's elbow is 3P. The question I was answering only referred to elbows. Not 3K's. . .
     
  15. MarlyJay

    MarlyJay Moderator - 9K'ing for justice. Staff Member Gold Supporter

    PSN:
    MarlyJay
    XBL:
    MarlyJay
    Not everyone has a 14f mid (shun, DS Vanessa) and not everyone's 14f mid is an elbow.

    Most of the cast do having a 14 mid of some kind though. And these are usually -4 or -5 on block, about neutral on normal hit and +5 or better on CH.

    Shun has a 14 elbow that's a special low (can be blocked standing) that has Frames not really like general 14f attacks and a 15f elbow that's close to the general one except it's -3 on normal hit.

    DS Vanessa has while standing P, crush jaw, a 13f mid punch that'll stagger on CH and is +1 on normal hit. If buffered properly it takes 14f to do from standing.

    Sometimes these 14f attacks are referred to as elbow class attacks and colloquially as "elbows", which leads to a lot of confusion :D
     
    Tricky likes this.
  16. Jason Elbow

    Jason Elbow Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    Its ok now...
    XBL:
    Jason ELBOW AKT
    Let me ask you something Jami. Lets say i as Lion i block Lau's face up/feet towards a sideroll wake up mid. I know im +6, whats the formula to determine what move i can use to not let my advantage go to waste?
     
  17. MarlyJay

    MarlyJay Moderator - 9K'ing for justice. Staff Member Gold Supporter

    PSN:
    MarlyJay
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    Block? There is no formula for moves on block. You're +6 and that's it. The reason the equation is there is because there is no contact (block or hit) on evade and the successful evade takes a set amount of time.
     
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  18. Jason Elbow

    Jason Elbow Well-Known Member

    PSN:
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    XBL:
    Jason ELBOW AKT
    But say if the opponent tries to attack. Launcher?
     
  19. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    The answer to the question:

    "How do I keep advantage when I'm at +6?"

    is simply:

    "VF"

    You're welcome ;)
     
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  20. social_ruin

    social_ruin Well-Known Member

    I personally love this write up Secaps. I think the difference in opinion really comes down to a difference of experiential, anecdotal evidence. In this scenario Myke is absolutely write from the standpoint of elite top end play.

    One of the things i love love love about vf is every character is a basic vanilla template, who has a unique set of outliers that define what makes them special. And this is why ultimately Myke is correct.

    My objection to this is what you wrote Secaps is my favorite part of the game. I've before mentioned that vf is similar to chess. In chess, pawns are "the should f chess". By being the weakest they are also the most powerful. And this vanilla recap of evade, 2p, 6p, 3k is the soul of VF. I believe what wrote up here is largely the fundamental understanding how to perceive adv in these situations. Then after that you have to accept it is fundamentally flawed. Play vs better players and learn to understand how they are deviating from the true universal data. The numbers don't lie. However, the situations become more important than the data. It is a strange dichotomy, that makes the game amazing.

    I feel anyone wanting to master the game should try to apply ur write up as cold hard truth. Use is it with goal of it failing and then learn why and where it fails via character specific interaction. It is a frustration process where you find the nuts and bolts of vf fail as often as not. Universal truths become highly diversified lies. But as a starting point it is amazing to grow thru the power of repetition of 'why did this truth fail'.

    The arguments in this thread became a bit of a case study on improvement.

    Lastly I love where Myke is talking about an argument for evade vs fuzzy. I believe when you reach a super high level of play, you have to trust you play well enough to fuzzy and live to pressure home the adv another day (2 seconds lol). Solid play is always best if you are best in the matchup. Pot odds--risk vs reward. At my level maybe i'd rather evade at -4 because i have better odds of winning if i can catch someone.

    Back to chess. Romantic sacrifices are beautiful. I believe it was kasparov (or casablanca) who said they preferred the intricate beauty of slowly snuffing ur opponent out with the ruthless logic of chess. (Not an exact quote).

    In vf you can rarely ruthlessly constrict all ur opponents options vs the superior opponent. So risk vs reward differs dramatically by your skill level. My risk vs reward on an evade goh 1p+k could be i win or lose, 50/50 vs 20/80 if i evade jab and rely on pure skill. I better player's risk reward might be 50/50 vs 80/20 if they simply extend the match.

    To include someone in this discussion i will take risks vs Jason Elbows blaze i don' take vs his wolf. Blaze is a rushdown i find brutal. I feel like vs wolf if i play moral i get my chances. Same player, different character.
     
    Ytpme_Secaps, erdraug, Tricky and 2 others like this.

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