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Lack of Newbie-Friendy Guides for VF

Discussion in 'Dojo' started by Supid, Jul 25, 2006.

  1. Condor

    Condor Well-Known Member

    [ QUOTE ]
    Supid said:

    It's "Supid", not "Stupid"! I know I'm still a VF newbie, but I don't appreciate people calling me "stupid"! /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

    Yes, at last, a fellow non-veteran who understand my grievances. Thank you thank you thank you ...

    Newbie guides should focus on the very basics:
    1) Simple attack (give simple & effective canned combos)
    2) Simple defence (NO SIDESTEP, NO FUZZY GUARD, NO REVERSAL OR THROW REVERSAL, just standing/crouching guard )
    3) SImple throws (up to 2-direction throws including low throws and basic catch throws; NO HALF-CIRCLE OR 270 DEGREE THROWS, NO HIT THROWS)
    4) Simple attack followups (basic floats using canned combos and ground attacks)
    5) SImple ground defence and wake-up attacks (struggling, high/low wake-up attacks. rolling wakeups)

    [/ QUOTE ]

    that was a misspell...sorry about taht, but i still agree with you.
     
  2. Jide

    Jide The Super Shinobi Silver Supporter

    PSN:
    Blatant
    Supid have you actually gone through the evo tutorial?
     
  3. Darrius_Cole

    Darrius_Cole Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    Darrius-Cole
    XBL:
    Darrius Cole HD
    [ QUOTE ]
    Jide said:

    Supid have you actually gone through the evo tutorial?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Supid, with a name like that you have to expect the "Stupid" jokes. In fact, you should be used to them by now.

    Jide, the whole point is that for a perfect noob the tutorial is overwhelming. The command training alone contains 70+ moves per character. Someone who doesn't know a single move can't tell which moves he should focus on now and which moves he should focus on later.

    If we want to keep the interest of the experimental gamer, we have to condense the movelist. Noobs should be allowed to learn new moves at their own pace. That way they can incorporate them into their games. The Tutorial and command list should be treated like reference materials where certain things can be looked up, as the player needs it to be.

    In fact, a dare say the game should be set up that way. The VF series would be better served if the PS3 version of the game would only along certain moves after certain achievments have been met. Say for instance Akira could not do a SPoD until the player had logged 1000 matches, or Aoi couldn't do reversals until she had logged 500 matches.

    Since the game most likely won't do that a series of guides that does will be most useful.
     
  4. vanity

    vanity Well-Known Member

    interestingly enough i think that woudl be an excellent way for people to learn the game. I can see with aoi, you can only use p, down punch, elbow, and throw for the first 50 matches.
     
  5. Jide

    Jide The Super Shinobi Silver Supporter

    PSN:
    Blatant
    [ QUOTE ]
    Darrius_Cole said:

    [ QUOTE ]
    Jide said:

    Supid have you actually gone through the evo tutorial?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Supid, with a name like that you have to expect the "Stupid" jokes. In fact, you should be used to them by now.

    Jide, the whole point is that for a perfect noob the tutorial is overwhelming. The command training alone contains 70+ moves per character. Someone who doesn't know a single move can't tell which moves he should focus on now and which moves he should focus on later.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I got the whole point and I actually understood what he was saying. I simply asked him this so I could get some feedback on what he liked about the tutorial and what he didn't like. I believe this will help immensely on trying to create a beginner guide..

    Its important to get feedback on what a N00B would like to see, what they would like to experiment etc..
     
  6. Supid

    Supid Well-Known Member

    [ QUOTE ]
    Edited: Condor said: (Sorry about the error, Jide, I didn't notice til quite late)

    that was a misspell...sorry about taht, but i still agree with you.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Just having some fun at your expense; like Darrius said, I have had several similar inclidents related to the "Supid" moniker. No hard feelings, eh? /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    [ QUOTE ]
    Jide said:

    Supid have you actually gone through the evo tutorial?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    No, because I don't have VF4 or VF4Evo for PS2. The PS2 in my home was acquired a month ago and does not belong to me.

    And the intended emphasis is on VF5. Unless VF5 arcade release in the English speaking world is severely severely delayed, chances are VF5 for PS3 will be even later so don't even consider training mode there.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Darrius_Cole said:

    If we want to keep the interest of the experimental gamer, we have to condense the movelist. Noobs should be allowed to learn new moves at their own pace. That way they can incorporate them into their games. The Tutorial and command list should be treated like reference materials where certain things can be looked up, as the player needs it to be.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    To follow up on Darrius's comments, the initial guide will need to be remarkably simple (I feel Darrius's sample movelist in his next-to-last post was pretty spot on). I know next to nothing about the complexity of the original Virtua Fighter, but a FAQ that covers that level of complexity should be about what a novice player can handle, give or take.

    Most novice guides should also assume that the novice starts with only average joystick/button coordination, untrained reflexes and ZERO battle experience, and avoid forcing the novice to learn more that what he can assimulate initially. Focus on the foundation of attack and guard first until it is sound before moving on to the intricates.

    I mentioned that I used to play another Sega arcade game with extensive gameplay depth. Once I learned the basics of the gameplay, I could apply the basics to practically every character available and defeat the (lame) AI consistantly. Similar, the novice guide should give the novice enough skills so that he could pick any character, including those he is unfamilar with, and stand a good chance of defeating the average button masher out there.
     
  7. Condor

    Condor Well-Known Member

    Based on a noob/ppl who dont like VF point of view (im not talking about me, but im talking about ppl who dont like VF), Its not that command that overwhelm ppl, except if he/she use akira or goh. its the gameplay itself that turn most noob off. if u refer to my earlier post about tech rolling and such....a lot of noobs have trouble with taht. i have talk to a lot of my friends who play fighting games, including hardcore tekken/soulcal player and casual gamers, and the #1 reason as to why VF turned them off is that they think the gameplay is too "stiff". i have talked with a lot of non-VF players and i defended VF by saying that "you have to spend some time to get used to the gameplay". But what happenes is that they tried VF for a couple of hours learning teh command, and then try to play it against the AI, but they found the game to be unattractive bc they cant do the "basics" movement or gameplay of VF, things that can be done so easiliy with other games. So they quit the VF. Although it may be hard for some of you VF veterans to believe, but a lot of VF noob turned off VF bc they are having trouble with the "basics". at least thats how i felt when i first play VF.
     
  8. Pai_Garu

    Pai_Garu Well-Known Member

    [ QUOTE ]
    Supid said:

    No, because I don't have VF4 or VF4Evo for PS2. The PS2 in my home was acquired a month ago and does not belong to me.

    And the intended emphasis is on VF5. Unless VF5 arcade release in the English speaking world is severely severely delayed, chances are VF5 for PS3 will be even later so don't even consider training mode there.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    From what Sega has announced. The English speaking world will not see a release of VF5 in the arcades. PS3 version has been confirmed for an early 07 release, and if an arcade version ever shows up, expect it to be way after the PS3 version.
     
  9. KiwE

    KiwE Well-Known Member

    [ QUOTE ]
    Supid said:

    Newbie guides should focus on the very basics:
    1) Simple attack (give simple & effective canned combos)
    2) Simple defence (NO SIDESTEP, NO FUZZY GUARD, NO REVERSAL OR THROW REVERSAL, just standing/crouching guard )
    3) SImple throws (up to 2-direction throws including low throws and basic catch throws; NO HALF-CIRCLE OR 270 DEGREE THROWS, NO HIT THROWS)
    4) Simple attack followups (basic floats using canned combos and ground attacks)
    5) SImple ground defence and wake-up attacks (struggling, high/low wake-up attacks. rolling wakeups)

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Reality-o-meter [--o--------]

    If you are so retarded that you don't want to learn about something like GS cause it's halfcircular or evading you are probably better of eating crayons in the corner. Fact still remains that VF has the best trainingmode available; that's why people are told to use it. Not cause Veterans look down on people. Try learning GG on your own and write a progress log for us all you'll see the difference.

    The reason why you can't approach VF like, say, SC3 (imho) with "cool moves to use" is cause VF is it's system. The system is VF.

    If you don't want to learn the system, but want to learn VF, then go away cause you can't. It's not spammer friendly (stiff) and you'll only be dissapointed in the long run. I've seen people come and go and none of those who want to be able to spam, or want these types of guides, stay, it's as simple as that. You'll only get bad and wrong habits doing things you're not supposed to be doing. Leisure players move on, they don't improve. Those who are curious, and actually go through training, stay.

    Who want's to write a guide, learning people wrong things to do, and then "defend" it when questions arise?

    /Mr Negativity
     
  10. Taim_Meich

    Taim_Meich Member

    I guess I'll add another newbie opinion here, although mine might not be the best example.

    When I purchased VF4Evo I was well aware of VF fame of being complex. I play a lot of 2D fighters, including the most tecnical ones (Third Strike and GGXX/ ), so I'm not a button masher either. So, I started the game, picked Goh because I like the character and his fighting style, even being aware that he wasn't the most newbie friendly one, and headed directly to training mode. First, I went through all his special attacks, and except for the hit-throws, that gave me problems at first, I executed most of them without problems (Goh doesn't require great execution, luckily). Then, I headed directly to the tutorial. I completed it entirely (having a lot of problems at some parts, like doing ETEG), and even if I didn't incorporated most of that knowledge, I learned a lot. Then, I went through the sequences and combos section, and manged to do some of them. Then, after all of that, I finally started arcade on normal and... I got really owned on the sixth or so battle (well, I still get owned, arcade mode enemies are too random and psychic for me xD). So, I returned to training, I did most of the tutorial again (everything but the most basic ones), went through the sequences and combos again, managed to do some more, etc. Then I started on quest (on easy) and advanced slowly, returning from time to time to training, and so on.

    So, what the hell am I trying to say? What I want to say is that the tutorial helps a LOT, even for those like me who didn't knew anything about VF before, but you need quite some willpower and persevereance. And maybe that's what most newbies lack.

    BTW, I'm trying to figure out a "list of basic moves" for Goh (the only character I can use, if you haven't guessed it xD), and I supose it would be something like this:

    /versus/images/commands/k.gif Mid attack with good range.
    /versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif Mid attack faster than /versus/images/commands/k.gif but with lower range.
    /versus/images/commands/db.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif Low attack with great range.

    /versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif Basic throw.
    /versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif Slightly more damaging throw.
    /versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif/versus/images/commands/g.gif Throws crouching opponents.

    And... I guess that's all? I find it too basic, but at the lowest level possible that's more than enough, I supose.
     
  11. Condor

    Condor Well-Known Member

    [ QUOTE ]
    KiwE said:

    The reason why you can't approach VF like, say, SC3 (imho) with "cool moves to use" is cause VF is it's system. The system is VF.

    If you don't want to learn the system, but want to learn VF, then go away cause you can't. It's not spammer friendly (stiff) and you'll only be dissapointed in the long run. I've seen people come and go and none of those who want to be able to spam, or want these types of guides, stay, it's as simple as that. You'll only get bad and wrong habits doing things you're not supposed to be doing. Leisure players move on, they don't improve. Those who are curious, and actually go through training, stay.

    Who want's to write a guide, learning people wrong things to do, and then "defend" it when questions arise?

    /Mr Negativity

    [/ QUOTE ]

    i never say anything about how "the training mode doesnt help newbie". to some extend, it does. However, the things that i emphasized about in my earlier posts, it's that even in training mode, a lot of VF noob are still having dificulty with it. take for example(and i have post this several time in earlier),quick recovery. i have spent time in the training mode for hours learning the basic, and have play VF in quest mode for about a week. Yet, even all those long hrs in the training mode, i still do not understand quick recovery +tech rolling completely, and having trouble with it. Quick recovery, throw escapes and such... required only one button to do so in other games i.e. tekken, soulcal...

    Even with its extensive training mode in VF, it does not means that noobs will be able to understand and comprehend completely. And i believe that this properties of VF gameplay scare the hell out of casual gamers and even those who are interested in VF. Ironically, i think taht VFDC lacks explaining these "basic" properties to noobs.
     
  12. Darrius_Cole

    Darrius_Cole Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    Darrius-Cole
    XBL:
    Darrius Cole HD
    [ QUOTE ]
    KiwE said:

    [ QUOTE ]
    Supid said:

    Newbie guides should focus on the very basics:
    1) Simple attack (give simple & effective canned combos)
    2) Simple defence (NO SIDESTEP, NO FUZZY GUARD, NO REVERSAL OR THROW REVERSAL, just standing/crouching guard )
    3) SImple throws (up to 2-direction throws including low throws and basic catch throws; NO HALF-CIRCLE OR 270 DEGREE THROWS, NO HIT THROWS)
    4) Simple attack followups (basic floats using canned combos and ground attacks)
    5) SImple ground defence and wake-up attacks (struggling, high/low wake-up attacks. rolling wakeups)

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Reality-o-meter [--o--------]

    If you are so retarded that you don't want to learn about something like GS cause it's halfcircular or evading you are probably better of eating crayons in the corner. Fact still remains that VF has the best trainingmode available; that's why people are told to use it. Not cause Veterans look down on people. Try learning GG on your own and write a progress log for us all you'll see the difference.

    The reason why you can't approach VF like, say, SC3 (imho) with "cool moves to use" is cause VF is it's system. The system is VF.

    If you don't want to learn the system, but want to learn VF, then go away cause you can't. It's not spammer friendly (stiff) and you'll only be dissapointed in the long run. I've seen people come and go and none of those who want to be able to spam, or want these types of guides, stay, it's as simple as that. You'll only get bad and wrong habits doing things you're not supposed to be doing. Leisure players move on, they don't improve. Those who are curious, and actually go through training, stay.

    Who want's to write a guide, learning people wrong things to do, and then "defend" it when questions arise?


    /Mr Negativity

    [/ QUOTE ](emphasis added)

    People can't receive knowledge until they are ready to accept it. If they don't want to hear it you can tell them the truth until you are blue in the face but they still won't know the truth when you are done talking.

    VF isn't stiff, it's precise. It's got exact commands for dashes or evades in all directions. SC3 doesn't have that; you can simply "run over there and hit 'em". You can't do that in VF. That why those of us that do know could help those who don't by giving information slowly.

    Most players are leisure players and leave anyway, but some of them will stay, learn, and get better.

    Someone asking questions about the proposed beginner's guide is exactly what we want. Them beginning to ask questions means they are curious. They use to win easily and now they can't. They're getting their head beat in and they don't like it; they want to be better. In such a case, you don't defend the basic but deficient guide, you introduce them to the next chapter.

    Example:

    <font color="blue">Noob: "The Pai Chan Beginners Guide said that I could attack a standing opponent with /versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif. It used to work. Now whenever I try that they block the kick and they grab me from my crouch and it's costing me matches."

    VF Regular: "The kick at the end is a slow move. They can always grab you if they block it. Try putting in /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif after the kick. Read <u>VF for noobs - Chapter 2: Escaping Throws</u>" </font>
     
  13. Supid

    Supid Well-Known Member

    [ QUOTE ]
    KiwE said:

    [ QUOTE ]
    Supid said:

    Newbie guides should focus on the very basics:
    1) Simple attack (give simple & effective canned combos)
    2) Simple defence (NO SIDESTEP, NO FUZZY GUARD, NO REVERSAL OR THROW REVERSAL, just standing/crouching guard )
    3) SImple throws (up to 2-direction throws including low throws and basic catch throws; NO HALF-CIRCLE OR 270 DEGREE THROWS, NO HIT THROWS)
    4) Simple attack followups (basic floats using canned combos and ground attacks)
    5) SImple ground defence and wake-up attacks (struggling, high/low wake-up attacks. rolling wakeups)

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Reality-o-meter [--o--------]

    If you are so retarded that you don't want to learn about something like GS cause it's halfcircular or evading you are probably better of eating crayons in the corner. Fact still remains that VF has the best trainingmode available; that's why people are told to use it. Not cause Veterans look down on people. Try learning GG on your own and write a progress log for us all you'll see the difference.

    The reason why you can't approach VF like, say, SC3 (imho) with "cool moves to use" is cause VF is it's system. The system is VF.

    If you don't want to learn the system, but want to learn VF, then go away cause you can't. It's not spammer friendly (stiff) and you'll only be dissapointed in the long run. I've seen people come and go and none of those who want to be able to spam, or want these types of guides, stay, it's as simple as that. You'll only get bad and wrong habits doing things you're not supposed to be doing. Leisure players move on, they don't improve. Those who are curious, and actually go through training, stay.

    Who want's to write a guide, learning people wrong things to do, and then "defend" it when questions arise?

    /Mr Negativity

    [/ QUOTE ]

    That's a rather harsh and unaccomodating reply.

    The outline is for a NEWBIE guide; its objective to get a totally clueless new player off the ground and provide him with simple yet effective means of attack and defense. Once the new player is conversant with the simple ones, there is nothing to stop him to learning all the advanced stuff, which is mostly provided for here in VFDC.

    A button masher who somehow can do SPOD repeatly and flawlessly might have an edge over another button masher, but still don't stand much of aginst a newbie who consistants guards the SP (elbow counterable) and retaliate quickly with simple counters; and it is a lot easier for most newbies to learn simple guard-&-counter.

    In my list, I intentionally cut out the more difficult and demanding things that were not essential to the very basic of VF: Attack/Guard/Throw/Recover for different reasons to accommodate those without the talent to grasp them right off.

    I know my skills and knowledge are lacking, but at least I have the basic core of VF down. I can't realistically hope to win entire matches against the more dedicated and experienced players, but I know enough not to make it a walkover or a one-sided trashing and can occasionally win back the odd round or pull a surprise on them. And that is enough for me to get some enjoyment out of it all and keep trying to improve myself and come back again ...

    If you have no intention of contributing positively, please at least stay out of it. Or better, create your own guide to VF and show you can do a better job at it. That is my motive all along, to prod the VF community to action by producing guides. I don't particularly care what you or the rest of the VF Community thinks of me; as long as something substancial is being done to help the popularity of VF by helping interested newbies master the initial steep learning curve
     
  14. vanity

    vanity Well-Known Member

    i would say someone with mashing with leifei will beat someone who only knows how to do spod -- but knows nothing else about akira.
     
  15. Siyko

    Siyko Well-Known Member

    You need to put in work to learn the game. A guide will not help you if you are not ready to put in that work, and you will not become a vf player.
     
  16. EmX

    EmX Well-Known Member

    Don't suck.
     
  17. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    [ QUOTE ]
    Condor said:

    if u refer to my earlier post about tech rolling and such....a lot of noobs have trouble with taht.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I see that you've asked about tech rolling, etc, on a number of occasions. Are you saying that the advice and hands-on training within the game wasn't enough?

    Alternatively, have you read The System of Instant Recovery?

    This, along with 40+ other FAQs, Guides, documents are available under the VF4 System Section.
     
  18. Sudden_Death

    Sudden_Death Well-Known Member

    "Supid have you actually gone through the evo tutorial?"

    "No, because I don't have VF4 or VF4Evo for PS2"


    nuff said...
     
  19. Condor

    Condor Well-Known Member

    Unfortunatrely...i did not see the "The System of Instant Recovery". so i do appologize for that. but i do stick what i i say earlier-that the "basics" is what a lot of noobs are having trouble with.
     
  20. KoD

    KoD Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    codiak
    [ QUOTE ]
    Condor said: the "basics" is what a lot of noobs are having trouble with.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Who are these noobs that you know?
     

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