Realisation can't "fix" VF without breaking it

Discussion in 'General' started by GustavoHeisenberg, Dec 24, 2019.

  1. GustavoHeisenberg

    GustavoHeisenberg Well-Known Member

    Maybe I'm growing up but I'm over the stage of getting annoyed by every little thing in Virtua Fighter or fighting games in general. "Realism", or the feel of it, has been my fetish and most of what I thought were my substantiated criticism of the VF5FS design stemmed from it.

    (edit: I initially didn't want juggling combos nor weak looking strikes to the point were it looks like Eileen is slapping the opponents health away)

    Nevertheless the more I've thought about it, the more I've realised that I'd be wishing for a totally different game (which is not MMA) and that game would have it's own design issues and considerations, it'd end up being nothing like VF.

    I don't know about Virtua Fighter's future but I think it's doomed to niche appeal, I don't see the franchise being revived - maybe it could happen 20 years later when I'm in my 40s. On top of that everyone is gonna get irritated because the new team will make changes they don't like.
     
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  2. beanboy

    beanboy Well-Known Member

    People said the same thing about Tekken for years, and even to this day, they still call it a niche fighting game too. And despite the ridiculous barebones, basic combat in that game, when namco used cheap marketing tricks, by putting Akuma, Baseball bat dude and Geese, all of that changed. At least for now. Because we don't know how long, the whole guest character appeal thing, is going to last for Tekken or other fighting games. And if new and old Tekken fans, will stay on for Tekken 8.


    And this will be the determining factor, as to if VF brings back all of their fans, or makes a huge chunk of them leave for good again. The game already has a foundation, that the other 3d fighting games, don't have. But yes, what the new team does, might either bring back many of the original players and fans/new fans, or piss them off for good. So sega and Yu Suzuki will have to thread carefully here.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2019
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  3. Chill

    Chill +40 DP Content Manager Shun Gold Supporter

    PSN:
    Chill58
    XBL:
    Chill PKG
    My take on 'realism' is to ask to what end does realism serve the game. If it's to simulate the feel or look of a real world fighting, I'd argue that VF has never really done this in a comprehensive way. Its presentation is on the more 'realistic' end of the spectrum compared to Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Tekken etc.., but I wouldn't describe the fighting in any VF as being particularly real to life. I agree that such a realistic game would be too different from what we know as VF to consider it a continuous part of the series.

    Tekken 7 is the current example of a fighting game series gaining a big chunk of popularity on release. I think the biggest determining factor in the success of a new VF will be how it's released and marketed. VF being released in arcades and then ported to consoles a few years later is no longer a viable strategy for worldwide success. The big thing that T7 did right was the Tekken World Tour - For players to remain interested in a 1-on-1 competitive game there has to be some impetus to keep playing, to keep improving and putting in the effort once they've played a few games and gone through the training mode, and an official league is a great way to do that.
     
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  4. Ali

    Ali Well-Known Member

    I think Tekken 7 has had the best post release support of any fighter. Harada ( whether you love or hate him) chunks a lot for personality and PR for the game as well.

    I don't like it but I like how it's supported very much.
     
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  5. beanboy

    beanboy Well-Known Member

    Yeah. I have to agree there. True dat!
     
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  6. masterpo

    masterpo VF Martial Artist Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    lastmonk
    One of Yu Suzuki's goals with the 'Virtua' series was to see how believable (realistic) he could make the games. Of course VF is not totally a combat simulator, but the human movement in the game is realistic, some of the stances and strikes are realistic. Some of the throws are realistic. Look up the definition of "virtual". Most of the players who are attracted to VF like it for its realism. I get you don't want an MMA game, but you've got to realize that in 1993 VF was as close to a mixed martial arts simulator as you could get in a video game (at that time). Also if you know the history of mixed martial arts (how it was back in 1993) VF's "World Martial Arts Championship" was a bonafide mixed martial arts championship.

    Of course MMA has evolved into something else these days. But VF's WMAC was the original mixed martial arts tournament. And Yu Suzuki made it as realistic as technology would allow. Contrast VF's approach to Tekken. Tekken just wanted to bring 2D fighters into the 3D realm. VF was meant to be the start of a whole new kind of fighting game.

    Another Modern 3D fighter Def Jam Fight For New York (that is not MMA):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5_Jlslp9nU

    shows some possibilities where 3D fighting games should be going right now.

    You want realism., you don't want the fights to occur in octagon's or have referees. I get that. But realism of the MMA game's

    Judo
    Karate
    Taekwondo
    Wrestling
    Muay Thai
    Sambo
    Kick Boxing

    get's it right. So maybe you want it to be a different environment, with different story line than MMA, but you can't deny how realistic the fights are in EA's UFC games. The Def Jam stuff was pretty good also for PS2 technology.

    Maybe Sega should just produce a new fighting game altogether. That way, they won't piss off any current fans. Leave Virtua Fighter as is and just give us a new innovative realistic (non MMA) fighting game;)
     
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  7. gido

    gido Well-Known Member

    I agree to a certain extent. VF is the only fighter that kept to its realistic code since day 1. It's just that the realism aspect of it is very technical. Mastering a character's playstyle is where the realism will shine alot clearer.

    What I like from VF is that even though it has its realism gimmick, they make it work because its still a video game. Cant be too real and you cant expect it to be. It just needs a bit more work on differentiating the balance. I also like how certain characters, like Jacky, take their individual martial art and make it literally their own instead of being just another Bruce Lee rip off.

    Honestly the best characters to interpret the realistic vibe of gameplay are your chinese martial artists, Lau, Fei Long (best looking character imo in this aspect), Pai, Jean, Aoi, Akira and Shun Di. It's very easy to make these characters animate real life fighting because we're use to seeing it in real kung fu movies.

    The rest of the cast, more or less, arent that showy so our minds arent use for their fighting style to simulate a real fight. Notably Lion and Eileen where they're both the most unique fighters but their styles are vague on how a real life fight would look like.

    Back to realism in FGs, Street Fighter has Guy, Tekken has Lei Wulong, I dont think MK has any realistic characters but my point is realism in FGs dont need to be set in stone for fighting games to make sense. The appreciation of the real life animations where one doesn't throw fireballs or do impossible spinning upside down kicks is where VF stands out. Its just the way about how impactful it really is, which VF kinda struggles on. That's just my take on things.
     
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  8. masterpo

    masterpo VF Martial Artist Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    lastmonk
    Agreed, as long as it is realistic enough to be believable, or at least plausible. It doesn't have to duplicate, or imitate some existing style, as long as it could be a style somewhere. That's good enough. And VF does that. All of its characters have a style that is plausible, and it feels plausible when you play them. Even if it movement you may have never seen before, as long as it believable. Kage has a few moves that are beyond belief but outside of that the VF roster is kewl. If the game toned down the launchers and converted floating into staggering and stumbling that would be a wrap:cool:
     
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  9. Thesch28

    Thesch28 Well-Known Member

    That would be pretty nice, it would feel pretty close to Shenmue's combat but better.
    Sadly i don't think that's ever going to happens i bet most fans of the series would most likely hate those changes.
     
    masterpo likes this.
  10. CoffeeCrusher

    CoffeeCrusher Member

    All VF needs is an update or sequel to make it fresh. Market it with CM on Youtube, Insta, and on sites like Steam.
    After that, add more martial arts, volumetric god-rays, rain that is for looks only, and no DLC required to unlock characters. Price it at $20. Lessen the floaty combos, increase stagger inducing hits, stay away from attacks that let you hit an opponent when they're down. Keep VF5FS jump mechanics the same, but jump attacks shouldn't always knockdown.
    Remove online rank matches and any system of battle points- this is a unique approach I would think for modern fighting games. Tournaments and points are for tournaments with officials. Remove tutorial modes, let players teach each other the game and find new techniques- let fans and players grow naturally.
    Keep online matchmaking as Player Match. Remove leaderboards for number of wins, try leaderboard stats that show character popularity for the month. Do not show top player(s) names unless in tournament environment. Keep controls the same. Keep ringouts, add breakable objects- no breaking bones. Add ways for players to support good sportmanship with tools like emotes in place of random win poses.
    I think changes like this are revolutionary to fighting game development. And make a mobile version... Card game maybe? -shrug-
    And RE: VF realism... Anybody remember the jump mechanics in VF1 and 2?? Talk about using the Force.
     
  11. masterpo

    masterpo VF Martial Artist Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    lastmonk
    While many current fans would probably not like it, for every one fan that kind-of VF lost, it would probably gain 50 to 100 new fans. I'm not saying make VF6 a UFC MMA game, but keep in mind those games sell 10 million+ units. Even when they're poorly marketed;)
    So a move toward more realism and legitimate martial arts would dramatically increase the potential buying audience.:sneaky:
     
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  12. GustavoHeisenberg

    GustavoHeisenberg Well-Known Member

    Weren't you the one that was interested in making Virtua Fighter play more like a kung Fu action film - no juggles. I think I was inspired by you, too bad I came too the forum with a bit of a pompous attitude that rubbed folks here the wrong way.
     
    masterpo likes this.
  13. beanboy

    beanboy Well-Known Member

    Wow! It sold so many? People really seem to love those UFC games.:holla:
    I played the one on dreamcast many years ago. And I will admit, it was kinda fun.
     
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  14. masterpo

    masterpo VF Martial Artist Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    lastmonk
    definitely, I would prefer VF with no juggles, or launchers, they could just change those animations to staggers, stumbles and stuns and keep everything else the same.

    @beanboy, yea, the new UFC games have

    Judo
    Taekwondo
    Muay Thai
    Karate
    Brazilian Jujitsu
    Wrestling
    Boxing
    Kick Boxing
    Sambo

    No Juggles, no floaters. And incredible hit physics. The matches are fun., different kind-a fun than VF, but nice. When I'm in the mood for pure martial arts, I do play the UFC games.
     
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  15. beanboy

    beanboy Well-Known Member

    @masterpo
    Cool! I think I'll definitely, revist the UFC games again, one of these days.
    Hey Po, do you play it on PS or Xbox?
     
  16. masterpo

    masterpo VF Martial Artist Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    lastmonk
    I'm a PS fanboy

    Since UFC 4 will be release sometime this year UFC 1,2,3 are going for real cheap.
     
    beanboy likes this.
  17. SUGATA

    SUGATA Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    SUGATA_RUS
    EA Sports UFC 3 is VERY deep and realistic SIM game.

    I wrote and entire 3000+ laconic Guide about the game, the most complex and deep guide about the game Meta:

    https://virtuafighter.com/threads/ea-ufc-3-integral-meta-guide-by-sugata.21239/
     
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  18. GustavoHeisenberg

    GustavoHeisenberg Well-Known Member

    Please just get an Xbox too, you are an adult, you can afford both consoles. I'd hope to play final showdown with you on the Xbox Series X next gen (given VF6 is years away if it's even coming)
     
    beanboy likes this.
  19. masterpo

    masterpo VF Martial Artist Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    lastmonk
    :ROTFL: Talkin about a cross over games VF -- UFC :LOL:

    Bones Jones , Misha Tate, added to the VF roster:ROTFL:
     
  20. beanboy

    beanboy Well-Known Member

    The name of that console is kinda funny!:p
    I'm hoping it's not a console, that will have multiple versions of itself, when it's released. Or a new updated version, every year.:p
     
    GustavoHeisenberg likes this.

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