Should President Trump be Impeached and Removed?

I don't think anything is gonna happen. The media and Democrats have been going extra hard against him since the day he won the election and nothing has ever stuck.

If his presidency has shown anything, it's how corrupt and bias they are, and how they use their power and position of being able to constantly and consistently send verbal messages to the masses to steer them a in a certain direction, mentally and emotionally.

Not sure if I remember right. But didn't it come out that he was being spied on or some shite like that in the first or second year?

Shoot, just recently the citizens of Puerto Rico found a warehouse full of supplies like water, diapers, baby formula, etc. that was being hid from them, which was sent to help after the hurricane. There's a lot of things that have been done to make him look bad. But that stuff lasts about as long as a flash card in the media or is so buried you have to dig to find it. Since they'd rather the masses focus on something else to make people think negatively about him.

Is what it is, though. I personally think things have been ok with him as president. If anyone is messing our country up, it's our own media and citizens.

 

You know all this could have been prevented if people just got out and voted.

 

Exactly, the citizens of the US get the government that they vote for. And if most citizens don't vote they get a government that is determined by a minority. And if the most citizens are unhappy with the government that they end up with, it is there own fault. The sad thing is that people fought and died for the right to vote. Blood was shed There was a whole class of people in the US that were considered property and as property they had no rights. No right to vote or anything else. These days those people can vote, and many of them don't even bother to put forth the effort to vote

 

I've heard from a trusted credible source that apparently, McConnell and Schumer announced at a private dinner to their respected parties that they are working on an agreement to acquit Trump. If successful, there may be some form of announcement on Wednesday

 

The questions are:

What will the average American think about this Senate and the future of the Senate after this
fiasco?

How will the image and respect of the US be changed around the world as a result of Donald Trump's Presidency?

What deontological standing will the Republicans have with most Americans if the trial has no witnesses and Donald Trump is acquitted?

If the majority of Americans are okay with Donald Trump's behavior what does it say about
the integrity and moral fiber of most Americans?

Do the majority of Americans prefer a King or Emperor rather than a President restrained by laws and a constitution?

The 2020 election in the US will clarify whether most Americans want a government for the people and by the people, or rather most Americans prefer to be ruled by a King, Emperor , or Aristocrat like things used to be prior to 1776.

Some people prefer to be ruled, it makes life easier and it removes personal responsibility and accountability.

 

I know, right?

It's not like half of the status updates are links to Tekken videos.
Or how there was never a politics thread that was regularly posted in for 5 years.
Or the total lack of Tekken related threads.
Or no mention of 2D fighters.
Etc.

I'm so glad this site stay totally on topic!
----

Avoiding the discussion of politics is why Americans are bootlickers like these tools and not alpha chads like these people. (i.e. we shouldn't be celebrating the people who will fuck you up if you go on strike)

If you want there to be real political power in PR, support decolonization.

Just off of the top of my head...

• Getting his platform built by calling the first African-American president a Kenyan.
• The self-admitted fact that he assaults women, not to mention the ever growing number of women speaking out against him.
  
• The Trump empire was built by his slum lord father, and dating back to Fred all the way to Donald practicing discriminatory practices, not to mention ties to organized crime.
  
• Continuing Bush and Obama's illegal wars and then ramping them up further. Despite often claiming he'd pull out troops and end the wars.
  
• Despite claiming to be pro-choice his entire life, he picks a zealot like Mike Pence as VP, puts two shitty justices in one of whom is an attempted rapist into the supreme court with the intent of overturning Roe V. Wade, and giving speeches to "pro-life" loonies.
  
• Putting out ads calling for the death penalty for the Central Park 5, despite there being no evidence of them committing the crime they were accused of.
  
• Abandoning our Kurdish allies, but then putting the troops he supposedly pulled out to bring home on the oil fields in northern Syria and literally stating it was for the oil. But it's not like the US has betrayed the Kurds before... lol?
• Demolishing EPA standards for air and water. Hello increased cancer rates.
  
• Signing off on dangerous missions that kill inoccent American citizens and put troops in harm's way.
• Pretending to be anti-PC but throwing the biggest fits about "Happy Holidays" or why football man won't stand for the flag.
• Promising to lock up Hillary Clinton and not following through. Like seriously, that was the only part of his stupid policies I was looking forward to.
• Continuing Obama's shit border policy but then ramping it up by separating families.
• Shredding the successful Iran-Deal for no reason and then recently ordering the murder of a state representative: a literal war crime.
• "Both-sides" nonsense when calling literal nazis fine people.
• People like Stephen Miller (a nazi), Steve Bannon (an "economic nationalist"), John Kelly (a piece of shit), "Mad Dog" Mattis (a war criminal), Betsy Devos (a clueless plutocrat and sister of a war criminal), Sean Spicer/Rense Pribus (snake oil salesmen), etc. all shit heads that are/were in his cabinet at some point.
• Totally fucking up the response to the disasters in Puerto Rico, where basically a 9/11 happened.
  
• Continuing the sanctions on Venezuela which has resulted in the deaths of over 40,000 people and trying to promote a coup with that Guaido joker.
• Facilitating the coup in Bolivia.
• The Shit-Hole country comment in conjunction with immigration policy changes.
• Breaking off positive advancements in US-Cuba relations and continuing the 6-decade long criminal embargo.
• Signal boosting right-wing conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones, and other "journalism" outlets.
• More tax cuts that only benefit the uber wealthy and further widening the massive wealth gap.
• Getting even more money for the military budget and "space force" (helped out by shitty democrats), but for some reason we don't have money to actually help American citizens, just war profiteers.
• Denying the existence of climate change and pushing policies that will make it worse.
• Starting a dumb-ass trade war with China which didn't do anything but hurt American farmers, whose suicide rates are rising like crazy.
• Claiming to want to do something about the opioid crisis when running for office, but hasn't done shit.
• The simple fact he doesn't pay people for their services.
• His words and actions have lead to an increase in hate-crimes, often committed by people in MAGA hats or just yelling "Trump" when they're being shitty people.
• Aiding the apartheid state of Israel break international laws.
  
• Plans on defiling ANWR.

This doesn't even touch his "demeanor" on Twitter, how his cabinent has a fast turn-over rate, how he insults families of service members, or the BS Russia narrative the media likes to talk about nonstop. And I know I'm missing a lot of shit, but you really haven't been paying attention.




I ask:

But this isn't a response:

What is an SJW? (I don't need a break down of the term, it's been well established for years what it means) What do they believe? What makes them hypocrites? I

Then support him.

But wait... what makes him the best democratic candidate? Is it his policies? And if so, that should be reason enough to be behind him. Why does his approach have any bearing on whether or not you want to see medical or school debt relief?

Let's not forget that he sided with segregationists in being against busing in the 70s and doesn't see a reason to at least apologize much less repudiate that position. Much less, his entire career has been a "bi-partisan" masterclass in pushing a conservative line in wanting to de-fund the social safety net. Or this shit being the most damning.

Considering she was an adult when she spoke for the Federalist Society and remained a Republican when they voted down the equal rights amendment, or during Reaganomics, during the A.I.D.S. crisis, during Iran-Contra, for apartheid in South Africa (and still supports the right-wing government of Israel in their war crimes in Gaza) but it took bank-regulation during Clinton for her to speak up? Liz is trash without going into her lies about her heritage.

Kamala's been out for some time now, and I've never heard of any "man hating." The issue with her is that she's a pig who helped incarcerate the poor and black people in California, and lying about evidence that would free people from jail. Under this system, it's safe to say All Cops Are Bastards (even if that isn't "PC").

What? "Identity Politics" has existed in the entire spectrum of political views from the beginning.

Conservatives to the far right (including the Clan/Nazis etc.) sure as hell made a big "stink" about school integration. Let's not forget the Conservative Jesus, Reagan's *spits on ground* operative Lee Atwater's description of Republican tactics.

As for the Center/Center-Right Democrats/Liberals in the American context, they're only interested in reaching quotas within our shitty system. The whole argument of "we need more female CEOs" stems from this, and obviously lacking an analysis of perhaps how we should be burning board rooms down instead.

The "left" is a massive umbrella but the way identity politics plays out really depends on what leftist tendency we're talking about.

Sup. *current Ho Chi Minh or some other Leftist leader as avatar winks*

But this analysis falls apart with just a little scrutiny. Nearly all the leftists I know were radicalize by many things:

• Growing up in bigoted environments and rebelling against conservative ideologies
• Surviving another recession and "recovery" where the stock markets boom while pay stays the same but doesn't catch up to inflation and/or living expenses
• Working a shit job/series of shit jobs and seeing the value of a union
  
• Seeing the hypocrisy of liberal ideology and feeling disaffected by electoral politics but putting the effort to learn a little theory
• Being told they can go to school and become anything they want, played by the rules and were awesome at that, but upon graduating there are no jobs and they become saddled with an insurmountable amount of student debt
• Either being the victim of or witness to police brutality
• Working for a community in a nonprofit and realizing that the services provided are just a band-aid and understanding we need a more systemic approach to fixing social ills
  
• etc.

Wha?

What?

So, PC (like SJW) is just a useless buzzword that's over used by too many people, but is even worse. What even is politically correct? It's completely subjective and can shouted regardless of your position. Non exhaustive list of things that might be "un-PC" or "controversial" takes:

Trans-Rights are human rights.

Tekken is trash. Virtua Fighter isn't even that good.

The Daily Show was a mistake as it fooled a generation of boring liberals that by owning conservatives with facts and point out their lies would actual do anything useful.

Dudes who complain about "uppity women," want to restrict abortion, and are part of "men's rights orgs" are the real betas.

It's fine when businesses and individuals say "Happy Holidays." Fuck Christmas

Colin Kaepernick showed too much respect by kneeling and should have flipped the flag off.

People who call or think the Democrats are "left" are unfortunate byproducts of a shit education system. They are centrists at best as they only want to regulate the economic system as opposed to bringing socialism, but they're right-wing imperialists most of the time.

All American flags should be burned on a pile of burning "Thin Blue Line" flags.

Cops beat their wives at a higher rate than the average citizen and are power hungry jocks with more drug habits than brain cells.

America never had a democracy for the people, just the ruling class.

American service men on international bases are generally that society's local rapist.

"Assault" rifles and other guns shouldn't be banned, especially if cops have access to military hardware. If anything we should be arming minority groups and unions but disarming "patriot" groups.

Every President America ever was a criminal and should be put on trail.

Conservatism is a vapid ideology and lost to Trumpism, which is just the next evolutionary step. Why do we need to use indirect language and actions when we can just outright attack brown people? This is why Trump has almost 90% of approval, and despite the ever increasing list of horrible things he does, hit popularity has increased since the beginning.

Don't get me started on Libertarians.

If the United States invades another country (always under false/illegal pretenses), the people of that nation have the moral right to kill our troops. Don't wanna get permanently crippled or die? Don't listen to the lies they teach you in basic training. Either get conscientious objector status or frag your officers.

America wasn't founded on Christian principles, the slave owners who wrote our shitty constitution were mostly deists. However, Southern plantation owners used the Bible to justify the enslavement of their labor, which pretty much made America and gave it its wealth.

People who support capitalism but own no capital are the biggest "cucks" in society.

etc.

The same thing I did before: the senate never had legitimacy. The entire impeachment case was a feud between two different wings of the same corporate system.

Depends who and where. Right-wingers will benefit, even the hard-liners in Iran are winning because of the recent bullshit we pulled. Liberals will forget in a few years. Leftists know better than to respect the US.

This nation was founded on genocide, white supremacy, and displacement. This is just a foot note in how our "democracy" has been a joke.

If that were the case, that's just the byproduct of a defunded education system and our shit media.

You give too much credit to the early presidents.

 

There are some very good points in your response.

 

You seem to be asking this question as if you are not an American yourself. I've assumed you are from the US too but are you not? Why aren't you including yourself in this line of questioning.

 

Yes, I'm American. But I'm definitely not the average American. I really don't know what the average American thinks about all of this. When I hear Americans talk about how happy they are with Donald Trump's performance in office, I'm totally bewildered. When I see the Republicans in the Senate perform bizarre mental gymnastics to explain that Donald Trump has only committed a minor infraction and that their opinions represent the conclusions and opinions of their districts, I realize that I'm an outsider in my own country. The fact that so many Independents and Democrats have not condemned the President for the people dying at the border(because of his policies), or children separated from parents (because of his policies), or the genocide that was caused among the Kurds by Donald Trump pulling out our troops, or by all of the life that was lost in Puerto Rico because Donald Trump's policies and diverting funds for either tax cuts for the wealthy or to build his wall. The fact that Americans seem to value the state of the economy and unemployment numbers more than basic decency. The fact that President Donald Trump has told thousands of lies in the last three years and many American don't seem to have a problem with that. When I see Americans cheering Donald Trump at his rallies. I realize I must totally be a freak. I realize that I must see the world very very differently than my fellow Americans.

I find myself baffled, chagrined, astonished, dazed and stunned by the mental contortions that I watch so many Americans perform on behalf of Donald Trump that I'm certain I'm not an Average American.

Logic, Mathematics, Empiricism, Cause & Effect, Ethics, Morality, Truth, The Scientific Method are all extremely important to me. Clearly this is not the case for millions of Americans that are satisfied, even happy with Donald Trump's presidency thus far.

Many of the intellectual positions of the The Scientific Revolution, The Age of Enlightenment, The Age Of Reason are obviously eschewed and despised by millions of Americans that support Donald Trump in the plain light of day. It is clear to me that although I am an American I'm not the average American because I can't even imagine whats going on in their minds as they cheer and support Donald Trump. Their opinions, sense of right and wrong, world view, political logic, mental workflows are absolutely foreign and alien to me. After listening to the Republicans and Donald Trump's lawyers during the Senate's makeshift trial and all of the support they got from so many citizens of the US, I'm literally starting to conclude I must be a different breed of American, perhaps even a different genus, or species.

So when I ask the question what will the average American think, its truly a question. At this point, I really have no idea whats going through the minds of millions of Americans that vigorously support Donald Trump, and the Senate Republicans. I truly can't even imagine how their logical inference functions, or what counts for reason in their minds.

Its like trying to anticipate what the pink panther is thinking at any given point in time

 

Well, considering how the Democratic party is freaking out and trying to undermine Bernie Sanders, if they manage to steal these primaries too: it's possible expect another 4 years of Trump. If not that, expect someone worse than Trump after 4-8 years of Democrat-led Neoliberalism.

 

@masterpo many people, not just Americans, are science illiterate and it's a huge issue. There is a similar wave of anti-science going through the EU right now too.

 

@masterpo @Sebo

Senate Rejects Efforts to Call Additional Impeachment Witnesses in 51-49 Vote

Now read the words of Alexander Hamilton:

"Where else than in the Senate could have been found a tribunal sufficiently dignified, or sufficiently independent? What other body would be likely to feel confidence enough in its own situation, to preserve, unawed and uninfluenced, the necessary impartiality between an individual accused, and the representatives of the people, his accusers?"

"In many cases it will connect itself with the pre-existing factions, and will enlist all their animosities, partialities, influence, and interest on one side or on the other; and in such cases there will always be the greatest danger that the decision will be regulated more by the comparative strength of parties, than by the real demonstrations of innocence or guilt."

I have already quoted Madison in his speech before the House of Representatives that impeachment may be administered due to high crimes AND misdemeanors. The high is distributed between "high crimes" and "misdemeanors" so that it may be accurately read as "high crimes and high misdemeanors." By misdemeanors, the Framers intended to add something that is not a crime, but nonetheless constitutes an abuse of the public trust.

So Hamilton: "The delicacy and magnitude of a trust which so deeply concerns the political reputation and existence of every man engaged in the administration of public affairs, speak for themselves."

It is not hard to imagine what may not be a violation of law but may nonetheless constitute a violation of trust. For example, a husband who has sex with a pornographic actress just after his wife gives birth to his son would not be a (civil) crime, but is certainly a violation of trust.

Also, when Hamilton stated that, "The subjects of its jurisdiction are those offenses which proceed from the misconduct of public men, or, in other words, from the abuse or violation of some public trust," it corresponded to what was written in English law, which was the framework of the US Constitution. The Framers were aware of it, there having been a case of impeachment in 1786 in England over high crimes and misdemeanors, led by Burke against Warren Hastings. The former wrote a lengthy "Articles of Charge of High Crimes and Misdemeanors" and presented them to the House of Commons. This occasion of impeachment was known internationally.

I mention these things as a conservative, in order to make the point that there is no Constitutionally valid means of exonerating Trump. Who believes that the verdict of "Not guilty" means that Clinton did not commit perjury?

Not even Lamarr Alexander thinks that Trump is innocent:

"There is no need for more evidence to prove that the president asked Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden and his son, Hunter; he said this on television on October 3, 2019, and during his July 25, 2019, telephone call with the president of Ukraine. There is no need for more evidence to conclude that the president withheld United States aid, at least in part, to pressure Ukraine to investigate the Bidens; the House managers have proved this with what they call a ‘mountain of overwhelming evidence.'"

"It was inappropriate for the president to ask a foreign leader to investigate his political opponent and to withhold United States aid to encourage that investigation. When elected officials inappropriately interfere with such investigations, it undermines the principle of equal justice under the law."

https://www.alexander.senate.gov/pu...eases&id=AA7E4960-6788-43A9-AF03-5DC456A0D448

Hamilton, who expected a partisan House but not a partisan Senate, described in Federalist 65 senators who would exercise their consciences when making a judgement on the president's conduct, whether pure or impure, whether out of the interest of the state or out of self-interest. It was about motives, and ensuring that there was not even an appearance of anything inappropriate.

This is why it was important to exclude Bolton from being a witness...

When I say that I am a conservative, I feel that I am interpreted as meaning that I am one in the modern sense in US politics. No, I am of the conservatives who understands the historical meaning of legal terminology, which may date as far back as to the Roman jurisconsultus.

I find foolish the progressives' use of biological metaphors about organic societies and there being a living Constitution...

Then again, there is the fallacy of the modern conservatives who keep repeating that Trump cannot be impeached because he committed no crime. I find myself referring again to the point I made earlier about "high crimes and misdemeanors", about how the Framers did not intend to reiterate by construing this as "high crimes and high crimes", and how the (high) misdemeanors could refer to any illicit conduct on behalf of anyone in public office, including breach of the public's trust.

However, these "conservatives" understand "misdemeanors" through a modern dichotomy of felonies, crimes punishable by imprisonment for one year or more, and the modern sense of misdemeanors, which are crimes punishable by imprisonment for less than a year.

First, it is anachronistic to apply this definition of misdemeanors to an expression dating to the 14th century. Second, they confuse the vocabulary of the Fundamental Law of the Constitution with that of ordinary law.

Progressives and conservatives alike need to read the Constitution and the Federalist papers, as well as understand the terminology used. There is too much confusion that arises from etic means of interpretation...

Contra Sebo, our Constitution would be much less "shitty" if people took the time to read and to understand. A true conservative, who properly understands the will of the founders, would not find sufficient grounds to exonerate Trump.

 

@Sebo, Me, You Drinks!

 

Wow Libertine, it is refreshing to read a such a well informed , well reasoned, and well supported argument for a change. It is revitalizing to encounter someone who even knows what the jurisconsultus is, let alone put it in legitimate context. And, clearly Americans are too far removed from the Constitution and the Federalist papers. The troubling thing about words , designations, etc, is their interpretation is sometime subject to the whim of change and convenience. For instance you clearly identify as Conservative but your understanding of its meaning is not shared by millions of Americans who also identify themselves as such. I've found in such situations that picking a new word sometimes helps. For instance in my field the term 'knowledgebase' has a very specific and technical meaning. But today's tech rendition has assigned it a totally different, even weaker meaning. So much so that I can't even use it in public without being misunderstood. I imagine you must have to explain yourself from time to time. One of the reasons why I cling to language of mathematics is that its meaning is usually resistant to cultural and temporal interpretation, and is not easily co-opted.

Your post is very motivating with respect to re-visiting the Constitution and Federalist papers. If I did not have even bigger fish to fry, I would certainly do so.

I guess in the final analysis we are each charged to contribute where we can and how we can. I hope you've found some juncture where you can contribute in some meaningful way and help move civilization forward. I once read somewhere that many are called but few are chosen. After reading your last post, it appears you are among the few.

 

@Libertine could you explain why you don't think Bolton should be a witness? Or why there should be no witnesses at all?

 

Whew!!!! Just tell me you vote in local, state and federal elections and you're not detoured by cynicism to participate during elections. A lot of folks after being sufficiently disenchanted about the system, chose to opt out, or give up. Hopefully this has not been your fate

 

In order to understand why, I quote again Alexander Hamilton:

"Where else than in the Senate could have been found a tribunal sufficiently dignified, or sufficiently independent? What other body would be likely to feel confidence enough in its own situation, to preserve, unawed and uninfluenced, the necessary impartiality between an individual accused, and the representatives of the people, his accusers?"

"In many cases it will connect itself with the pre-existing factions, and will enlist all their animosities, partialities, influence, and interest on one side or on the other; and in such cases there will always be the greatest danger that the decision will be regulated more by the comparative strength of parties, than by the real demonstrations of innocence or guilt."

Recall earlier when I said that Hamilton believed that there would be a partisan House, but not a partisan Senate. The above quotes stress the importance he placed upon impartiality among its members, how they were to be uninfluenced by partisan politics, and how they were to judge according to their personal consciences.

Personally, I believe that John Bolton is trustworthy... but he was recently fired by Trump and is selling a new book that talks about Trump withholding military aid to Ukraine, pending an investigation of Hunter Biden and other Democrats (whoever they are). I do not think that Bolton would perjure himself to get back at Trump or would lie to sell a book. However, he still has a motive for such conduct...

The Senate, according to Hamilton, is to be detached from the "animosities, partialities, influence, and interest on one side or the other", and are to exercise their own judgements being "sufficiently independent."

Case in point is the judgement of Lamarr Alexander:

"There is no need for more evidence to prove that the president asked Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden and his son, Hunter; he said this on television on October 3, 2019, and during his July 25, 2019, telephone call with the president of Ukraine. There is no need for more evidence to conclude that the president withheld United States aid, at least in part, to pressure Ukraine to investigate the Bidens; the House managers have proved this with what they call a ‘mountain of overwhelming evidence.'"

"It was inappropriate for the president to ask a foreign leader to investigate his political opponent and to withhold United States aid to encourage that investigation. When elected officials inappropriately interfere with such investigations, it undermines the principle of equal justice under the law."

https://www.alexander.senate.gov/pu...eases&id=AA7E4960-6788-43A9-AF03-5DC456A0D448

The "inappropriate" conduct is the same as the (high) "misdemeanors" of which Madison spoke. The president does not have to have committed a crime under this rubric. This is what Dershowitz meant by "criminal-like conduct"... it is not a crime, but it constitutes an abuse of executive power, a breach of the public trust...

 

@Sebo, Drinks not enough ok, np. How about 8 balls & hookers?

 

I read like halfway thru this post's content & still no online opponents found on VF5FS. I'm a fellow American, how long that remains IDK because I'm not White & likely to suffer a hate crime or action against me in the future for my ethnicity. I also drive a Japanese car so I'm not helping myself either. Staying indoors is hopefully safe and staying out of management positions at work are probably best too. And keep your friends the same color. I never thought I'd think like this as an American, but it's a sign of the times.. And my age.

 

Dude Sebo, and you riffed this off the top of your head you really list some legitimate stuff here. But seems like the President's strategy is put up a strong economy and unemployment numbers against your entire list. I wonder whether Americans will fall for it. Do spoils of capitalism out weigh all the negatives in your list