LOL. That 2P animation has always bugged the hell outta me. I'm glad Marly brought this up, I totally agree with his SB comments. I'll jump on the aesthetics bandwagon and say yeah, 2P looks utterly ridiculous.

While I agree some moves seen in VF can be rather the strategic importance of 2P and the frequency its seen makes me yearn for a more sensible looking move. Keep the properties the same but change the animation, I'd personally like to see it as a low-uppercut akin to the second hit of Jeans' 3PP.

OSU

There are a lot of anti-low moves in VF. Generic ones like all jumping attacks, and character specific.
If opponent abuse 2P exposing her/himself to be pushished and one doing nothing with that.
Then who is guilty?

To me this is simple as the above and obvious.

I do agree about 2P looking so stupid But the only advantage of 2P over most characters jabs the ability to attack quickly while lowering your hit box. I'm worried about if you changing the animation means your hit box is gonna change too, thus killing 2P. So I guess it has up be some ducking hook to the body maybe to retain those properties, or some move similar.

From a functional point of view:

Low punch is part of the core VF guessing game. As long as the frames are the same it doesn't really matter what the animation looks like. In fact, with the advent of VF5FS, some characters' (such as Akira's, as per Myke's linked picture example) low punches were redesigned to be ankle punches instead of groin punches.

The shoutbox discussion quoted above does not mention the redesign - even though most participants in the discussion have played earlier versions of the game and are certainly aware of this fact. Thus, I believe, the point of contention was not functional but aesthetic.

From an aesthetic point of view:

Nowadays most VF moves look like something a martial artist would perform in a fight; the low punch is unfortunately not one of them. There's a bunch of moves in the game that require the spectator to suspend their disbelief (eg. some of Wolf's throws only work with the active participation of the other fighter, which would not occur in a "real" fight) or flat-out unrealistic moves (Kage's 8P+K anyone?) but NONE of them are used as frequently as low punch. I am willing to bet the last martial arts movie or sports event you watched did not consist of 30% ankle punching action.

So, to use another fancy term, the repeated use of low punch, a distinctly "non-martial arts" move, "breaks the immersion" for some players.

However aesthetics are subjective.

For old-school veterans who sunk their teeth in VF1-VF4, iconic animations ARE what keeps them immersed. Given that these veteran players constitute the (vocal) majority of VFdc forum-goers I fail to see the point of Myke's thread; his own conclusion is the archetypal "git gud" reply one has come to expect from seasoned veterans when the subject of low punch is brought up.

Personally I don't know where I stand. I'm not old-school, but then again I am not convinced that VF is trying to be "realistic" on purpose either - the game still has floats and rebounds after all. If I were to direct the VF live-action martial arts movie I would probably call it "Dr. VirtuaFighter or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the 2P".

But, to humor Myke, and for the sake of argument, I would like to point out some possible alternatives:

A standing special low with no upper body hitbox would still fill in exactly the same role in the rock-paper-scissors game. Aoi's 43P is practically a 2P in its execution speed. Vanessa's DS 1P could be made faster, special low and lose the sabaki. The same properties could be extended to other moves eg. Lau's downward palm, or Jeffry's 2P+K - or any move that looks evasive really (Eileen twirls around when doing her 3P right? Slap on those 12f exe, -5/+2/+5 frames and, presto, instant low punch replacement).

Alternatives to a lack of upper body hitbox include:

Deflecting: think Akira's VF5vanilla but for all highs.
Armor: Not an integral part of VF mechanics but developers have shown they are willing to experiment with the latter eg. Wolf's RAW or Taka's taunt... thing.
Upper body invulnerability. That's a staple in 2d games but I'm pretty sure we don't have something like that in VF. I could see short range power moves such as Goh's 6P+K having invulnerability frames though. But maybe that's akin to opening the Pandora's box...

...it's downtime at the uni ATM so I apologize for the wall of text. Hope someone finds this an interesting read. Thx for the opportunity Myke

As annoying 2p is, it's still a vital part of stifling offense, and setting up the guessing game of attack or throw. And there are ways of to deal with it. Hell you can even block it standing. And as far as the aesthetics of it goes I'm cool with changing it or keep it the same. It really makes no difference to me the looks of it.

2P is -5 on block, offline that's a free 17f launcher for anyone that has one and any 17f or under move works. Online 2P isn't -5, it varies, sometimes people can crouch and hammer out 2P's on block and you can't do shit, that's online. Tekken has the same kinda shit, SF has DP spam online. I agree with Jason you can standing guard 2P and it looks fine. If you can't figure out what to do with a +5 situation offline i'd suggest improving.

i really like marly's idea of changing the ascetic. One of the things i've come to love about vf is character moves overlap. back handspring- lau/pai/kage/eileen?. Well you get the idea. However, if they changed the animation characters could have unique or semi unique "2p's", that fit either their martial arts or personality. Goh's could be a foot stomp (i realize he already has one), aoi could be a thematically correct shove on the hip, etc. It would definitely improve the look imo.

Just to clarify my statement of nerf 2p. I posted that after watching shag vs drift ft10 on youtube. No doubt 2 very good players but that match is a brutal 2p-fest that is hard on the eyes. I mean just watching it one can almost feel/imagine both players are having a miserable time with no fun in sight.

In game balance i respect the importance of 2p, and that it is basically everyone's best all purpose low. If that wasn't the case you might end up with a situation where the strongest character was simply the character with the best 2p alternative. That would be a bummer.

So when i say nerf 2p i don't mean destroy it's utility or effectiveness. i mean trim a situational edge very slightly. I know we have all seen very high level play devolve to a 2-fest where both great players thoughts are getting trumped by sheer 2p volume (offline even). When you see grand finals tournaments where both participants double or even triple 2p in a row.

The type of tweaks i had in mind would ideas like:

*consecutive 2p's can't yield counter hit, or perhaps the 2nd is 0f on hit. It would still retain all functionality towards interrupt and brain freeze, but would punish a panic 2p based defense.

*doing 2p after having a move blocked that leaves you at -6 or greater either is a 13f 2p, or has 1-2f more recovery to reduce it's effectiveness as an initiator after having a combo blocked. Moving it to a more defensive role in that situation.

I'm not saying nerf it every way possible. Anyone one (and i mean only one) of those tweaks was the vein in which i meant by 'nerf'. Or some better idea, not saying i have the answer.

The important part being that you don't remove 2p as an absolutely integral part of the vf guessing game. Something small like this would just make it another part of the vf guessing game. The decision on how and when to you 2p would be ever-so-slightly less rote, and more important while simultaneously leaving 2p just as important as an interrupter and a freeze move (2p throw/mid alive and strong). At the same time the decision to not 2p would become more strategic.

I am not saying my suggestions would even necessarily work in practice. But thematically i would like to see the importance and threat and thought in a given match around 2p be essentially as great as it is now, without the sheer number of 2p's being used to achieve it. That might not even be possible though.

I understand the desired outcome. I just disagree with how we get there. I think the system (as is) is perfect. In my theory, the match you cited could be "fixed" not thru a 2p change , but through better traditional VF yomi (reads) , either 2p crushes, or straight up +4, +5 counter moves (15,16 frame moves)

And when thinking of ST (side turned) I am even more convinced. As this 2p "issue" does not occurr in ST , in ST you are hoping the opponent tries to "escape" with a 2p, the whole meta starts there.

The ONE suggestion that peaks my interest on aesthetics (spell?) Aoi's 43p (double palm) imagine if 2p looked just a bit more like that, I could get with that. But not a standing low cuz it needs to "look" like it goes under highs.

Aside from the visual aspect, the main problem with 2p arises when people try to use their online experiences to form their opinion. Ofc 2p is going to be broken when its + on block (bc lets face it, we've all had our elbows stuffed after blocking an opponents 2p online). I personally see no problem with it, mechanically speaking, from an offline standpoint. Its the game's universal tech crouch.

Now, should players be punished more for throwing it out? would it be a good idea to make it -6 and result in nitaku? I could see that as a valid option. A common situation I see is with jacky's 2_3p. -6 on block so on and so on. many times jacky players will 2p after it to beat high and throws or delay ch launchers. Using this situation, I would say that its fair that a blocked 2p should be -6. Because the player thought it would be a good idea to "squirrel" out of nitaku with a 2p, having their 2p blocked should put them back in nitaku. Thats the only mechanical change that I think could be acceptable.

Once again, I definitely like 2p the way it functions already. I dont think it needs to be changed in that aspect.

But I do think that Am2 needs to reconsider the animation. Just give everyone johnny cage nut punches like the namcops did with feng lol.

I (alongside my friends who really enjoyed VF5FS) didn't have any qualms with the shonky 2P since it suited how the game played. That said, a visual change wouldn't be the end of the world. So long as it "looks" like a high-crushing S.Low then it really doesn't matter. Perhaps a squatting midsection hook?

2p look is classical and should be given a choice to have new/old look option.

2p mechanic is fine where it is right now. The issue is that there is no 14 frame mid stagger to follow it. Honestly, it should have never been taken out. Along w/ that the light weights power, p(ch)guaranteed throw.

Back on topic, 2p can be crushed in this game against some characters even when their disadvantage is high. It's not as tightly programmed as other versions.

Fs in a nutshell is sideturn lock to deter 2p from happening during st lock. Pretty much that's what you want your opponent to do so 3k crumples them.

I like 2p a lot! 2p reminds of when navf learned the term, "abare!" At first, abare seemed like a demeaning term, but as the translation was uncovered, "recklessly attacking from disadvantage or reverse nitaku" it was openly accepted.

All in all, 2p is tight and gets my respect!

Don't worry 2p, I love you!

Haha. I didn't expect you'd make a thread about it.

2P itself, I have no issue with(Other than how it looks).A quick interruption of the opponent is always useful.
The USE of 2P is what I have an issue with. Throwing it out every other chain while at hitting range is just annoying, and I have seen two opponents spam this back and forth throughout an entire match.

The only real change I would do with it is increase the disadvantage on block from -5 to -7 or -8(At least if you yourself are blocking low.)

I don't expect anyone to agree with me on this, though.

Can you use the plus frames to land a launcher?

So basically 6p?

or the variety of 9P's

I think there's no 9p quite like Eileen's.

]
You're right, Lion and Sarah get a variety of jumping kicks that work like her 9P Kappa.