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Lion's move analysis

Discussion in 'Lion' started by Chibitox, Feb 6, 2013.

  1. Combolammas

    Combolammas Sheep

    I've wondered about that too. He never had a fast jab before and now they gave it to him while removing some who used to have it. With all those fingerpokes I suppose he should have a fast jab but gameplay wise it just feels... kinda wrong.

    The guy actually used to have a slower 2P than anyone else LOL (on a more serious note, that was unrecalled for, even if it had more range than most).
     
  2. Cozby

    Cozby OMG Custom Title! W00T! Content Manager Sarah

    PSN:
    CozzyHendrixx
    XBL:
    Stn Cozby
    gotta say [3][3][P][+][K] is literally impossible to use as a 18f sweep punisher. doing [6][6][3][P][P] > [K][K] or just [6][P][P] is better.
     
    leftylizard likes this.
  3. leftylizard

    leftylizard Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    blue mouthwash
    Yeah man, I tried 33p+k to punish a -18 sweep and it is not practical at all. You would have to anticipate
    the sweep and even then its still to small a window to pull off consistently I think. I was waiting for someone to mention what you said, cozby.
     
  4. Cozby

    Cozby OMG Custom Title! W00T! Content Manager Sarah

    PSN:
    CozzyHendrixx
    XBL:
    Stn Cozby
    lol p.s. i meant to type [3][P][P] > [6][6][K][K]
     
  5. Angelo Miguel Moreira

    Angelo Miguel Moreira Member

    XBL:
    Takasugi PT
    hi guys Im a noob and Im trying to come up with some guaranteed moves (I think thats the term used,Im talking about that heavy stun that leaves the opponent paralyzed).the only thing I was able to come up with, is -charge move (back+p+k) and then up+foward+p or back forward p+h, thats the only thing I know that results in a heavy stun, everything else is just small stuns like is down+foward+p+k, this is frustrating to me because I see characters like pai and jacky doing this kind of thing easily with just 2 moves (and fast ones unlike Lion charge move).also if u guys know any easy juggle combo to perform plz let me know, I was able to come up with a few ones myself but it doenst make max damage like then ones I see...but they are to hard to perform O.O

    sorry for not using the terms u guys use to describe move sets,I dont understand that kind of thing u guys say (exemple:9k, etc), but Im sure u guys know the moves I said.if I wasnt able to explain myself that well let me know and Ill type this in some different vocabulary (english is not my main language)

    also is there some safe ways to use his stances betwen combos,theres only one way (Iknow of) to use one and u have to counter a high punch, I remember in vf5 vanilla to be mutch easyer to use this, because if I remeber well, there was frame advantage.

    edit1:
    many thanks =´)
     
  6. Chibitox

    Chibitox Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    Most of your questions can be answered by looking at the combo section or the movelist. The "big stun moves" you mentionned are called "crumples" in VF, most of the time they require you to hit the opponent on counter hit (aka hiting them while they were doing a move, but before their move actually hits you)

    http://virtuafighter.com/combos/index.php

    The moves are often written using the pad number notation (1=down back, 2=down, etc).
    Most Lion combos are easy to perform, you shouldn't have problem with a bit of practice ;)
     
    Angelo Miguel Moreira likes this.
  7. no_w_h_ere

    no_w_h_ere Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    nowhere0
    Angelo Miguel Moreira likes this.
  8. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    So, I'll try to cover a few topics for you here, Angelo ^_^

    1) Numeric Notation corresponds to the numeric keypad on a computer, which is arranged like this:

    789
    456
    123

    Looking at this, the numbers correspond to the direction player 1 would input.

    7 = Up-Back. 8 = Up. 9 = Up-Forward.
    4 = Back. 5 = Neutral. 6 = Forward.
    1 = Down-Back. 2 = Down. 3 = Down-Forward.

    What are the advantages to this?
    Once someone understands this notation, there is less confusion and you can even communicate in voice with a lot of players from other countries with this notation.


    I personally like this notation because it is easy for people to misunderstand diagonals when we use words to describe directions. In voice, "Down-Forward Down-Forward" can be misunderstood as "Down, Forward, Down, Forward." In numeric notation, it is easier to understand "33" to represent this and the listener should not mix it up with "2626."

    2) Guaranteed Damage in VF

    It sounds like you come from Dead or Alive. While I am not well-versed in that game, it sounds like you are looking to create the equivalent situation of stunning the opponent so you can do guaranteed damage.

    In VF, guaranteed damage is rarely created by hitting someone. It is usually created by having a stronger defense than your opponent and your opponent making a mistake. I will list those below, but there are other important points in VF beyond this concept.

    Most Common Guaranteed Damage Comes From:
    * You block an opponent that used a very risky attack.
    * Your opponent whiffs an attack. Slower attacks are easier to punish. This includes ducking under high attacks (and even throws, but punishing a whiffed throw requires crazy reflexes).
    * You successfully evade an attack that is really slow.
    * Some (but not all) stagger situations create guaranteed damage situations.
    * You hit your opponent into the wall in certain ways.
    * Many guard breaks create guaranteed damage situations.
    * Aoi's Yin-Yang stance parry creates a guaranteed situation for her.
    * There are very very few attacks in the game that have guaranteed options after normal or even counter hit (without launching), but they do exist. Some additional guaranteed damage situations from normal or counter hit occur if your opponent is side-turned or back-turned at the moment of impact.

    Guaranteed damage in VF is very important at high level play, but the core of VF is actually understanding that there are a lot of defensive options when your opponent has you stuck at disadvantage (but not guaranteed damage). Having these defensive options forces your opponent to adjust their attacks. Your opponent having a lot of defensive options forces you to adjust and vary your attacks too.

    Where guaranteed damage comes into play at higher level VF is mainly avoiding it as much as possible until your opponent's preferred options tell you otherwise. This means reducing the risk caused by movement (ie. dancing around is great and can bait low and intermediate players into whiffing, but some very experienced players can actually punish you for it or lock you into situations for your excessive movement), being very very picky about your moments when going for a launcher because a strong opponent will do so much damage if they defend it, etc...

    This part is really hard to fully explain or appreciate though, because your best options are really determined mostly on what your opponent is doing--not simply the superior quality of a move in the movelist compared to all others.

    3) Where to start with Guaranteed Damage (with Lion)

    So the first place to figure out where to apply guaranteed damage with Lion...

    Well, you will want to know your throws. High Throws are guaranteed if the opponent is at -10 frames or worse and is standing. Lion has a decent throw game so you want to mixup his good throws for the situation. Learn how to combo 2_6P+G (Crouch --> forward+P+G). After that, Half-Circle-Back+P+G becomes a nice mixup with decent damage. And P+G is always a good mixup, especially against stronger opponents (not so much beginners).

    Lion's PK is guaranteed if the opponent is at -11 or worse. Furthermore, Lion has options here:

    PK(G) -- This means you tap G after inputting PK so that you will not have string inputs after doing PK (such as PKP or PK, P+K+G stance). In this situation, Lion is +3 so you can attack again with something like 6P (elbow) against everyone to apply extra pressure.

    PKP -- If your opponent loves doing low punch after everything and especially when they see strings, then PK...delay...P is actually pretty good here and will hit them if they try to do a low attack. However, PKP is bad if they are patient enough to duck after PK and try to punish you for doing the followup P, and it is also bad if they evade in this situation.

    PK, P+K+G (stance) -- This option is fun but only good if you've been applying the pressure and your opponent is hesitant about interrupting you. I don't recommend this option in general because it is very risky and almost anything can hit you out of this. But it is still a fun option and has its uses if you get good at applying pressure on your opponent and reading when they are hesitant.

    Lion's KK is guaranteed if opponent is at -13 or worse and standing.

    Lion's 3P+K --> PK (or PPP) is guaranteed if opponent is at -15 or worse and standing.

    Lion's 44K --> combo is guaranteed if opponent is at -15. However, this buffer is often tricky and it is recommended that you use it at -16 situations or if you can see the -15 situation coming from a mile away. (In Offline play, 44K can be setup pretty well from backdash, but backdash is very risky in VF against good players).

    All this said... Lion's guaranteed damage after blocking moves, while not bad, is not as great as some others. He is a bit better at applying pressure from mid-range and close-range (especially side-turn pressure), mixing up (one of the only characters in the game that has a really good arsenal of low attacks, but they are still damn risky), ringing people out, doing wall damage on people, playing with space, and messing with the opponent's defense. His lack of fast normal hit launchers encourages him to be a bit more aggressive with his repertoire too.

    Anyways, I hope some of what I posted above makes sense to you. I imagine it's a lot and it's more than you asked for. That said, I think the most important message to you is that VF's flow and decision trees are really different from Dead or Alive. They are both great games, and they have a lot in common, but in VF you'll be training to better master the transition between offense and defense and back to offense. You won't get to force the offense in the same ways, but you will be breaking your opponent's defense while pressuring them into making a mistake against your defense to open them up.
     
  9. Angelo Miguel Moreira

    Angelo Miguel Moreira Member

    XBL:
    Takasugi PT
    wow thank u so mutch for this =') .I feel like Im becoming better after I stoped playing DoA5 (its to hard for me too be good at 2 fighting games xD ) and reading the combos list, plus all the training in arcade on very hard. this helps a lot many thanks
     
  10. Darksoul173

    Darksoul173 Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    Darksoul173
    I guess i can put it here
     
  11. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member


    I'm really glad you're still playing VF and I really hope this helps you a lot, man!
     
    Angelo Miguel Moreira likes this.
  12. LegendaryHero90

    LegendaryHero90 Well-Known Member

    wouldnt a delayed string still hit you?
     
  13. Darksoul173

    Darksoul173 Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    Darksoul173
  14. erdraug

    erdraug Well-Known Member Content Mgr Vanessa

    XBL:
    erdraug
    Sorry for necroposting Cozby but i had to check: shouldn't the input be 44 > 3pp > 66kk? Does 66 also work?
    Lol i'm an idiot :D

    I remember that back in VF5 we had a similar discussion about punishing lows with Lion's elbow and that the recommended input was 44 - but in this case it will obviously result in 43P as Chanchai points out below.

    Thank you for taking it easy on me!
     
  15. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    66 works for me. i think 44 would get you 43P.

    I also roll the stick from 6 --> 3 when doing this, as in, I don't even go to neutral between 6 and 3.

    If your question is in regards to 66KK, that's what I do. And I think 2P --> 66KK works most of the time? I haven't tested all characters.
     
    beanboy and erdraug like this.
  16. Ares-olimpico

    Ares-olimpico Well-Known Member Content Manager Lion

    PSN:
    ares-olimpico
    Hi.
    I just read this entire thread because i'll start a little research about [P][+][K][+][G][2]/[8] y [2][P][+][K][+][G][2]/[8]
    two notes:
    1.[3][3][P][+][K] requires 19 normally 0 frames Delay need you input [3][3] beffore the input buffer (really the second one ca be in the first frame of the buffer) and [P][+][K] in this buffer/memory explained here http://virtuafighter.xyz/vf5fs/command-input-1.html or Spanish version in VFDC Wiki
    2.[3][P][+][K] give +15 in side recovery counter hit this means you can do easy [3][P][+][K] [3][P][+][K] [P][K] or [3][P][+][K] [K][K] or if you train 0fD [3][P][+][K] [4][4][K][P][+][K] and do a damaging combo from a middle slow evaded move, if the evaded move is slower and you are skill enough [3][3][6][P][+][K] is better.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
    Stl_Tim likes this.
  17. Ares-olimpico

    Ares-olimpico Well-Known Member Content Manager Lion

    PSN:
    ares-olimpico
    Hi
    Some [6][P][+][G] Considerations
    This throw is used to side switch and a [8][P][+][K] guaranteed attack, because its granted +10f versus a back turned opponent who need 5f to face Lion and guard this mid move. We all know that but we can choose to test our rival defense.
    [3][P][+][K] connects versus some character and grants you +15 this is just the time you need to execute Zero frame Delay [4][4][K] and do a combo usually [4][4][K][P][+][K] [4][6][P][+][K] [K][K] or more guessing game with a throw, [6][3][2][1][4][P][+][G] for damage or [4][6][P][+][G] to continue the minds games now [3][3][6][P][+][K], [6][6][K], [3][K], [4][1][2][3][6][P] or even a Dash and imagination.
    of course the opponent can just crouch without guarding he need to react and stand quickly if not a mid slower and stronger than [8][P][+][K] can connects.
    In this scenario enters [1][K][+][G][P] a natural combo versus back turned attack and your opponent continues side turned with - 4 that is good another 1k+gp maintain the situation
    if you wanna try wall combo [6][6][P][+][K][P] [1][K][+][G][P] can cause a wall hit but need your opponent fail twice.
    [3][P][+][K] not connects versus this characters Eileen, Shun, LI, Kage
    [3][P][+][K]x2 is possible versus Va, La, Le, Br, Jn, Je Wo y Taka
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2020
    Stl_Tim and Iwazaru like this.
  18. Ares-olimpico

    Ares-olimpico Well-Known Member Content Manager Lion

    PSN:
    ares-olimpico
    And now we star with [P][+][K][+][G] and [4][P][+][K][+][G]
    Hakotsushu [P][+][K][+][G] is a parry with 1 frame execution till the end of its 35f of total duration, have a follow up evade that usually put you in side turned situation or back turned with a variable advantage (sometimes disadvantage) works versus mids and highs attacks punch or elbows not double punch and not versus attacks that knock down on normal hit
    versus some moves your throw attempt is guaranteed or some fast attacks versus certain moves you can do a combo and this move can be view like a "sabaki with job".
    in some setups the Op needs Side Fuzzy ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8toXoZe-Muw) to evade de [3][P][+][K] that is a high.
    Side pressure of Lion is very powerful if your reads are good and can reverse a very large diasadvantaged in a combo or a very advantage setups this move can wins rounds itself. Defense Lion is hard if your rival need think too much in his offense this situation can be annoying.
    Another important property is that if you get hit during [P][+][K][+][G] this enters as normal hit and yes works versus some dangerous guardbreaks.
    [4][P][+][K][+][G] works versus highs punch and elbows no matters if its knockdowns in normal hit. Combos with Tōsō Kobikyaku are listed. Execution are not listed maybe because have a dual meaning and it works since the very first frame. ¿but all the total duration? ME NEED TO CHECK
    If I remember well don't need to face your oppopent to use
    about [P][+][K][+][G] NEED TO CHECK if you need to face your Opponent
    i am checking [P][+][K][+][G] versus almost all the commands list of the other characters i record the move or p and the move in order to can react and try [P], [2][P], [K], [6][P], [3][P][+][K], [4][K], [3][K], [8][K],[4][6][K], [P][+][K], this is 11f 12f 13f... in detailed stats if you can hit your opponent it show counter in blue letters but is not true, in some cases Op can crouch this means you only can hit because is side turned and needs 3 extra frames to face you
    Unfortunately i cant find a formula to calculate this advantage. If somebody knows please post here.
    VERSUS WOLF
    [P] and [P][P] works
    [P][6][P] 11
    [6][P] 13
    [6][P][P][+][K] needs Toro Teihozen [4][P][+][K][+][G]
    [6][3][2][1][4][P] 16
    [6][3][2][1][4][P][P] Toro Teihozen [4][P][+][K][+][G]
    [4][6][6][P] Toro Teihozen [4][P][+][K][+][G]
    [4][3][P] 10
    [3][P] 9
    [1][P] 10
    [1][P][P] 10 is Auto Guard this means you guard first if Op no Delay you guard the second even you smash buttons. Toro Teihozen [4][P][+][K][+][G] too
    [P][+][K] 12 [P][+][K] Full Charge sorry less than eight
    [6][3][2][1][6][P][+][K] less than eight (sorry at this point no realized make the cpu op attack)
    [3][P][+][K] 13
    Remenber add 3 frames if you want test if your opponent crouch or not
    To evade your opponent need to face you first then he gain 3f less in a successful evade or can't do it if at
    time if disadvantage is plus than 7f because 8 + 3 > 11f of Lion's jab. yo will need larger advantage to use
    slower moves without "risk" of evade
    https://virtuafighter.com/wiki/positions/#side-turned
    Thanks Myke for confirm the 3 frames needed to star the evade in side turned situation in this case with your Op in large disadvantage evade is a risky option he must choose guard stand or down and need to react if you try a more complex but slower setup.
    Next Lion himself
    See you.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2020
    Iwazaru likes this.
  19. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    From a Side Turned state there's a 3 frame penalty before you can guard or evade.
     
    Ares-olimpico likes this.
  20. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623

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